aguahombre Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Not sure I understand wanting to go for 6NT with the hand examples where the tricks and entry issues on a heart lead thru opener make 12 tricks in clubs much more attractive. A spade ruff for a trick is more likely in a club contract than in NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lalldonn Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Not sure I understand wanting to go for 6NT with the hand examples where the tricks and entry issues on a heart lead thru opener make 12 tricks in clubs much more attractive. A spade ruff for a trick is more likely in a club contract than in NT.You may be right that after 1♥ 2♣, 2♦ 2♥, 3♣ and then finding out I am off 1+queen I should bid 6♣ not 6NT. But my point is 2♥ doesn't commit you to playing in hearts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Of course I'm going to assume it's 2/1 game forcing. If I bid 2♥, then bid keycard, and we are off one + the queen, I will bid 6NT anyway. I can't imagine it being worse than a club break, and opposite hands like your example there are 12 top tricks. I don't have to play in hearts after bidding 2♥. I know you are trying to make me miss 7♣ and it is possible. But if you bid 2♠ and partner bids 3♣ will you be able to tell later whether he has that hand, or x AQxxx AJxx xxx? If I bid 2♠ and partner bids 2NT or 3♦ and I bid 3♥, that does not promise three card support (in fact I would tend to have two after bidding 2♠). If partner next bids 3NT (very likely) what am I supposed to bid to assure I will be able to then bid keycard for anything?Opposite the hand you give 7♣ is better than 6♥ and as good as 6N. I'm used to 2/1 not GF so is a WTP 2♠ for me. Actually I will be able to tell the difference between my hand and yours because I have all the other potentially useful cards, I can bid 4♦ kickback over 3♣, partner bids 4N for 2 without and now I bid 5♦ (I have the K or Q♦, bid 7 with the other one), partner will bid 5N (I don't have K/Q♦ or K♥/♠ but I do have something of use which looking at my hand must be Q♥ so I can make an informed decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lalldonn Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Opposite the hand you give 7♣ is better than 6♥ and as good as 6N. I'm used to 2/1 not GF so is a WTP 2♠ for me. Actually I will be able to tell the difference between my hand and yours because I have all the other potentially useful cards, I can bid 4♦ kickback over 3♣, partner bids 4N for 2 without and now I bid 5♦ (I have the K or Q♦, bid 7 with the other one), partner will bid 5N (I don't have K/Q♦ or K♥/♠ but I do have something of use which looking at my hand must be Q♥ so I can make an informed decision.In order...My example wasn't perfect, you are right. I won't try to get into a discussion about what to bid if 2♣ was not game forcing since I have no experience with that. But it is my understanding that on the forums, 2/1 game forcing is assumed unless we are told otherwise. I don't recall anyone ever suggesting otherwise until now. Why can't you make the same 4♦ kickback bid for clubs if you have bid 2♥ instead of 2♠? I agree that if partner is 1543 then clubs will often be better, but that isn't an argument for not bidding 2♥. And if partner has other shapes then as I said, bidding keycard later may be complicated or impossible if you haven't bid 2♥ now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 In order...My example wasn't perfect, you are right. I won't try to get into a discussion about what to bid if 2♣ was not game forcing since I have no experience with that. But it is my understanding that on the forums, 2/1 game forcing is assumed unless we are told otherwise. I don't recall anyone ever suggesting otherwise until now. Why can't you make the same 4♦ kickback bid for clubs if you have bid 2♥ instead of 2♠? I agree that if partner is 1543 then clubs will often be better, but that isn't an argument for not bidding 2♥. And if partner has other shapes then as I said, bidding keycard later may be complicated or impossible if you haven't bid 2♥ now.I'm not getting into another argument over what board standard is, but I keep getting told off for assuming the wrong board standard in different threads by different people (I assumed 5542 and was told it was 5533 having also done the reverse and have been told board standard is 2/1 GF and not GF in different threads over the years). As I was trying to say, I have no experience with 2/1 GF so would have to bid a WTP 2♠ as 2♥ would not be forcing. We also bid kickback much more liberally than most people so for example 1♥-2♣-2♦-2♠-3♦-? 4♥ would be kickback in ♦4♠ would be kickback in ♥To sign off in 4♥ you have to bid 3♥ then 4♥ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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