The Emblems of Untimely Graves

[daveharty]

[hv=pc=n&w=s43hakj7dat5caq72&e=saqjt872ht86dck63&d=e&v=b&b=10&a=1sp2cp2sp3hp3sp4sppp]266|200[/hv]

 

Who should've pushed harder?

 

Edit: 2/1. Imps if it matters.

[nigel_k]

East 75%.

 

I would have bid 2NT with West the second time and 4♦ the third time. But I'm not sure the failure to bid 2NT had any real effect and 4♦ would presumably not have awoken East from his lethargy since it doesn't make his void any better. With the East hand I would have bid 4♠ instead of 1♠, 4♠ instead of 2♠ and 4♠ instead of 3♠. I think any of those would have been enough for West to push toward slam.

[Cyberyeti]

2/1 or standard american style ? ie was 2♣ GF ?

 

I really dislike 3♥ as I think 2♣ then 3♥ should be unbalanced but I'm not sure there's any alternative in the methods you play.

 

I would bid 3♠ over 2♣ not GF (limited by the failure to bid a GF 2N, 6.5 tricks is pretty normal) to show this type of hand in my own system, but that's a bit fruity for standard, 4♠ is probably a better bid than 2♠.

[mike777]

if 2s shows 6 which it does for me then west has an easy 3s bid and not stopping then.

[lalldonn]

West should clearly have tried. 4♦ on this auction should be a slam try in spades. If west had made the normal 2NT bid on the second round instead of 3♥, then 4 of either red suit on the next round would be a slam try in spades. East has a clear move past game opposite any slam try.

[mikestar13]

At these colors I rather like the sequence 4♠-5♠-6♠, where 5♠ asks for trump quality. I'm tempted to give East 100% for making this sequence impossible.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

At these colors I rather like the sequence 4♠-5♠-6♠, where 5♠ asks for trump quality. I'm tempted to give East 100% for making this sequence impossible.

I'm sorry, but since ♦ have not been bid, 5S would ask for at least 2nd Rnd Ctrl in ♦ -- not trump quality.

[Cyberyeti]

I'm sorry, but since ♦ have not been bid, 5S would ask for at least 2nd Rnd Ctrl in ♦ -- not trump quality.

I think he means opening 4♠, 4♠-5♠ does ask for suit quality but I would normally assume less than xx for this bid, AQ empty 8th is plenty to want to be in this and AQ empty 7th is in the ballpark, I wouldn't bid 6 on these as I'd assume partner has x or void. I'd probably just keycard over 4♠.

[CSGibson]

The people who are saying east should have pushed harder are insane in my opinion. West did everything he could to screw up the auction, and never once made a clear slam try or showed clear extra values. 3♥ is a space-consuming bid with no upside - why not bid 2N? And after 3♠, West needs to realize that he can't bid his hand the same way as a normal human being would with a 2-4-2-5 minimum without a diamond stopper - he just has too much.

 

Seriously, a 7 control 18 count with a semi-fit is bid like a minimum semi-fit, and you are asking who should have pushed harder?

[CSGibson]

4♠ is probably a better bid than 2♠.

 

Oh really? This is a great hand for clubs, why would we want to preempt our auction?

[the hog]

I think 4S - 6S is a more sensible auction. In the given auction West bid very badly. East gets 0% blame in that auction.

[PhilKing]

Before you give East a free pass, how would West bid x AQJ9 x AQxxxxx, where 7♣ is on a finesse? He shows a game force with long clubs and four hearts and signs off when East just keeps bidding spades.

 

I give both players 110% of the blame - this is the modern vernacular for outstanding effort, so I feel the same should apply to failure. They both settled for game on hands that might have play for seven.

 

Obviously West should bid 2NT over 2♠, then East bids 4♦, but all the subsequent bids were terrible.

[CSGibson]

Before you give East a free pass, how would West bid x AQJ9 x AQxxxxx, where 7♣ is on a finesse? He shows a game force with long clubs and four hearts and signs off when East just keeps bidding spades.

 

I give both players 110% of the blame - this is the modern vernacular for outstanding effort, so I feel the same should apply to failure. They both settled for game on hands that might have play for seven.

 

Obviously West should bid 2NT over 2♠, then East bids 4♦, but all the subsequent bids were terrible.

 

 

There is a possibility that west might bid clubs more than once on that hand. Just saying.

[the hog]

Don't you think a 7-4 is worth a couple of club bids? But I take your point.

[PhilKing]

Don't you think a 7-4 is worth a couple of club bids? But I take your point.

 

Make the hand x AQJ9 Q Axxxxxx, and now 4♣ over 3♠ would be insane. 3♥ strongly suggests 64 for me, when you have a forcing 2NT available.

[Cyberyeti]

Oh really? This is a great hand for clubs, why would we want to preempt our auction?

It is very rarely going to play better in clubs than spades (and I'll take the chance that he has 7 clubs, that's rare). If both suits run it's irrelevant, if partner has K♠ and a club loser you either risk a ruff or being cut off from dummy, if partner has no spade honour again you risk dummy being forced in diamonds and not being able to get back to the spade suit.

 

I think some of the layouts above where opps are silent and have 12 diamonds and 17 points are pretty unlikely.

[PhilKing]

It is very rarely going to play better in clubs than spades (and I'll take the chance that he has 7 clubs, that's rare). If both suits run it's irrelevant, if partner has K♠ and a club loser you either risk a ruff or being cut off from dummy, if partner has no spade honour again you risk dummy being forced in diamonds and not being able to get back to the spade suit.

 

I think some of the layouts above where opps are silent and have 12 diamonds and 17 points are pretty unlikely.

 

A priori the chances of the opponents keeping silent with 11 or 12 diamonds are low. But here partner has shown a dstribution hand with clubs and hearts, and then raised spades. Maybe opponent has xx jx Axxxxxx xx and didn't fancy overcalling (other hand Kjxxx).

 

A more mundane example: xx AKxx Qx AQjxx is a finesse for seven. Opposite xx Axxx Qx AQjxx you might make only ten tricks on a heart lead, but they are probably leading a diamond, so slam is solid. I would also fancy my chances opposite K QJxx qx AQxxxx.

 

I would just bid Six Spades as East.

[Cyberyeti]

A priori the chances of the opponents keeping silent with 11 or 12 diamonds are low. But here partner has shown a dstribution hand with clubs and hearts, and then raised spades. Maybe opponent has xx jx Axxxxxx xx and didn't fancy overcalling (other hand Kjxxx).

 

A more mundane example: xx AKxx Qx AQjxx is a finesse for seven. Opposite xx Axxx Qx AQjxx you might make only ten tricks on a heart lead, but they are probably leading a diamond, so slam is solid. I would also fancy my chances opposite K QJxx qx AQxxxx.

 

I would just bid Six Spades as East.

Not arguing with your examples, but my point was that these hands play at least as well in spades as they do in clubs in answer to CSGibson, the 12 diamonds point was more to say that the examples where they don't were very unlikely.

[Quantumcat]

Shouldn't 2♣ then 3♥ show an unbalanced hand with five or more clubs and four or more hearts? So then, shouldn't East bid 4♣ over 3♥?

 

Assuming West bid 2NT over 2♠ to show his balanced hand, now it can go something like (E) 3♣, (W) 3♥, (E) 3♠, (W) 4NT, (E) 2 keycards and trump queen* (W) 6♠.

 

* I play that if one player shows two suits and the other is balanced, OR if a second suit has been supported, its king counts as a keycard. If you don't play this, then substitute in 1 keycard, then queen ask with yes as response.

 

Anyway I think East should support clubs after partner definitely shows five, and I think West should only bid two suits when he actually has two suits.

[mcphee]

It is my view the W hand created a problem with the 3H bid, what ever that was supposed to mean. Now it "sounds" as though he was dragged into bidding 4S. The west hand failed to consider partners issues in the auction. I give west all the blame.

[kayin801]

Agree with pretty much everyone that West screwed up early by not bidding 2NT and then declined to show an A and Q worth of his/her points.

 

I would take West's bidding to show 4-5 at least so maybe E should have bid 4♣ over 3♥ but then things might get really messed up.

[daveharty]

I was East, partner was a bot. I would have bid 1S-2C-4S with a human partner, but I've had bad luck with that sequence in the past sitting opposite GIB. Obviously the whole auction is somewhat tainted by my failure to make the most descriptive rebid, but I was curious about two things on the auction as shown:

 

1. Should West bid more strongly, esp. after 3S? (I think yes)

2. Should East bid more strongly after 3H, given that there seems to be a double (or even triple) fit? (I think yes)

 

At the table I decided "no" on #2 because I took partner's sequence with a large grain of salt. It seems like GIB will often do this with a balanced hand, and I thought that over the range of hands that GIB would bid like this, it was likely that spades would play as well as or better than clubs. Plus I really wanted to play the hand.

[billw55]

Late to the party, but my thoughts, mostly already stated by others:

 

east has an alternative opening (4♠) but 1♠ is fine. Having chosen to open 1♠, I see no reason to jump to 4♠ on any subsequent call. If it's a preempt, it's a preempt on opening.

east has an ideal rebid of 3♠ over 2♣ but only if that is in the system.

west should rebid 2NT. 3♠ would also be better than 3♥.

east should bid 4♣ over 3♥. Kxx in partner's 2/1 suit should not be suppressed after already rebidding spades.

west should make a stronger call over 3♠. He still has not shown his values. A good 18, and no interest in slam opposite an opening bid?

 

Overall I give about 80% west, 20% east.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

East 75%.

 

4♠ instead of 2♠ and 4♠ instead of 3♠.

 

I think I like this option where Responder's 4S rebid ( over the 2/1 GF ) shows a max preemptive hand that was flawed for a 4S opening .. such as a high outside honor :

 

1S - 2C

4S - 6S

 

[ I don't like 3S over 2C, because that shows a stronger hand, sets trumps and demands cue-bids. ]

[Phil]

The first two calls were flawless. Every other call can be criticized to some degree.

 

I also can't tell you exactly how I'd bid it, other than West has an obvious 2N call over 2♠, and East needs to convey better trump.