bglover Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 You pick up this hand: AKQj9xxxq10xxx You open 1C, partner responds 1H, you raise to 2H (i would not on J9X but u and partner have agreed to 3 card raises). Partner bids 3d, you bid 3h, partner now bids 4d 1c-p-1h-p-2h-p-3d-p-3h-p-4d-p-? YOUR BID? Reasons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Hi Steve, I actually like raises with 3 card support. But that is not the essence of the question. I think if there was a mistake in the bidding, it was your 3 HEART rebid. I would have rebid 3NT over 3Diamonds. Heck you got a ton of stuff in Spades and only 3 card support. Let your partner know that there is an alternative contract to HEARTS. OK. So now you forced me to bid 3H, and partner bids 4D. He is making a slam try with no Spade honor and no Club honor. If he can't cue-bid a club control, you really cant bid slam. So in this auction, I bid 4H. I play partner for S-xx H-AKQxx D-AKJx C-Jx, or maybeS-x H-AKQTx DAKQx CJxx (although with this i bid 3S over 3H). And I think if partner is looking at S-xxx H-AKQTx AKQx Cx, he still should have cue-bid 4CLUBS. What I will not do is cue-bid 4S now, since I am missing any club honor. If you feel you need to participate in slam try after the 3D bid, you could have cue-bid 3S then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YesHoney Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Frequently when you agree to support on 3 cards, you have also a way to find out if 3 or 4 cards and if opener is minimum or maximum within the range of his rebid. If no such agreement exists I will take 1c 1h 2h 3d to be a game try and bid 3h. And after 4d (which denies S and C control) there is an easy 4h bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 There is nothing wrong with supporting on 3 cards. The 3H bid in the given sequence is poor and guarantees 4 card support. You have an easy 3NT bid. Note that this is an offer to play this contract. If pd now bids 4D, I would take his 3D bid as an advance cue. I assume we are bidding 1st and 2nd round controls. He would appear to be denying a C control here, so a sign off is warranted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 You pick up this hand: AKQj9xxxq10xxx You open 1C, partner responds 1H, you raise to 2H (i would not on J9X but u and partner have agreed to 3 card raises). Partner bids 3d, you bid 3h, partner now bids 4d 1c-p-1h-p-2h-p-3d-p-3h-p-4d-p-? YOUR BID? Reasons? Tricky hand Partner's 4D bid is a strong slam try.I've shown a minimum hand twice and partner is still trying for something more than game. Slam is a good proposition if partner holds as little as xxAQxxxAKQxxx Given what I COULD be holding for this bidding sequence, I'm feeling fairly enthusiastic about my hand. I'd be much happier if we were using a cue bidding style in which 4D denied a 1st or 2nd round control in clubs, however, I'm assuming that we are using traditional NA methods in which 4D promises a first round diamond control but does not deny a second round club control. At the table, I would probably bid a practical 5H, asking about the quality of partner's trumps. I know that we have a club loser. I believe that the biggest risk to making 6H is a slow trump loser. 5H lets me focus on this immediately while preventiing the opponents from making any pesky lead directing doubles. Even is we happen to have two club losers off the top, the opps will need to find the right lead. Forced to make a blind lead, it will be hard to find a club if the honors are split. The opps may chose to lead a spade through my indicated strength, or better yet a trump which will help us to pick up the suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bglover Posted March 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 As an addendum to this post... I agree with both that the proper rebid over 3d is 3N on this hand... But I am not sure I agree that 4H is correct after 4d. I am with Richard on this... Now, let's assume that the bidding has gone 1c-1h-2h-3d-3n-4d... would you show spd control now (i.e., 4s over 4d?), Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 2over1 said... "Now, let's assume that the bidding has gone 1c-1h-2h-3d-3n-4d... would you show spd control now (i.e., 4s over 4d?)" No, No, No, NO!!! Even in the event that your cue-bidding style is to cue-bid first round controls before second round controls, your partner had the opportunity to cue bid 4 CLUBS with a second round control (having denied a first round control on the last round of bidding). Since your partner's choice of cue-bids denys a first or second round control of clubs, and careful examination of your own hand you will show that you lack a first or second round control in clubs, how can you consider bidding on? 4SPADES shows not only a control in SPADES, but also a control in CLUBS, by inference. QED Thus, you should only bid 4 SPADES only if you have suicidal tendencies or playing with an illogical partner. The meaning of 4 DIAMONDS is very clear. If I had to quess, your partner is 2-5-4-2 or 2-6-3-2 with really good red cards, but you have two club losers (of course if they lead a SPADE you make six). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bglover Posted March 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 I have but one answer to that... Your partner opened 1C, so bypassing that bid to show slam interest (on the assumption your partner can control suit with opening bid) seems not unreasonable. Now, many people do not cue bid 2d round control until all 1st round controls accounted for... The responder's hand was indeed a nice, strong 2551 hand with nice hearts... this is why I prompted this question precisely.. The fact that Ben would not show a spade control while Richard would was why I thought this was worth a post... IN ALL CASES I personally believe that opener has a duty to bid 4S over 4H in case partner has a 2d round club control, or. as Richard suggested, just bid 5H. I do not think (personally) it is incumbent for the heart bidder to show a club control... He has a right to expect that suit isnt a problem... He has to find out about spade cards before he can really get excited...Over 4s I would bid 5c (actually looking for seven) showing 2d round control. OPENER HAS FAILED to disclose where his real strength is... How can he NOT show partner the spade cards when partner is so clearly fishing for that information? This is a STRONG auction and to NOT bid spades would say to me that opener's points are all concentrated in the club suit... exactly the information that responder cannot act on. I don't even think this one is a close call... I am truly surprised 3 people took the position that responder had to cue bid his club shortness while no one thought that it was important to show where opener's real concentration of strength was... The only thing I do agree with is that over 3D clearly 3n is operner's correct and only option... I do think from there responder can cue bid clubs (hearts having been agreed on as a trump suit) and go from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 One further point is that on the ACTUAL auction, (not how it should have gone), we may very well be in a 4-3 fit. Remember pd thinks you have shown 4H. I know pd is strong but having already misled him by showing 4 trumps I am prepared to give up on this hand and apologise. In answer to 2/1 above. Firstly we need to have the agreements to bid 1st and 2nd round controls. With a regular partner this is obviously something that has been discussed. With a pick up partner?? Good luck. Why should responder believe that C are under control? Consider the following : AKQJxxxQxQxx Opposite xxxxAKQxAKJJxThese hands are totally consistent with the bidding to date Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 2over1 said... "Now, let's assume that the bidding has gone 1c-1h-2h-3d-3n-4d... would you show spd control now (i.e., 4s over 4d?)" No, No, No, NO!!! Even in the event that your cue-bidding style is to cue-bid first round controls before second round controls, your partner had the opportunity to cue bid 4 CLUBS with a second round control (having denied a first round control on the last round of bidding). Since your partner's choice of cue-bids denys a first or second round control of clubs,. In what way, shape or form did partner deny a club control? 3D should show shape. It is NOT some form of advanced cue bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Let's examine your commentsYour partner opened 1C, so bypassing that bid to show slam interest (on the assumption your partner can control suit with opening bid) seems not unreasonable..... Why should either partner EVERY have to cue-bid opener's suit then? Do you only open a suit with first or second round control? You know this is nonsense. Shall I go through the myhands site and find out how many suits you opened at the one level in the past week without ACE or KING? And it is unnecessary to "ASSUME" (when you ASS-U-ME you make an ASS out of U and ME), you can use cue-bidding to find out what suits are, and are not, controlled. And, this is important, there is a perfectly acceptable way to find out if your partner has first or second round control of spades on this auction Next you said:Now, many people do not cue bid 2d round control until all 1st round controls accounted for... Well, you cue-bid 3D showing first round control, then you cue-bid diamonds again (4D). Are you just showing the ACE again, since all the first round controls have not been accounted for? Of course not. You already denied the SPADE and CLUB Ace (when you skipped both 2S and 3C to bid 3D). So you are now showing second round controls. This time you skipped clubs, so denying contol. You said.IN ALL CASES I personally believe that opener has a duty to bid 4S over 4H in case partner has a 2d round club control. The perfectly normal way to find out if your partner has a SPADE control is to show your CLUB control. Of course if the auction goes, 1C-1H-2H-3D-3N-4C <<-- you are absolutely sure to get to slam, with no risk at all for grand slam. Your partner, having heard that you lack the club ACE (you didn't bid 3C) and have the club KING or singleton (you cue-bid 4C) will easily recongnize the value of the SPADE AKQ. Now bidding on is easy. You see... if you SHOW WHAT YOU have, your partner can bid logically. Thus you get to 6H oppositexxx AKQxx AKQJ x,J AKQT9 AKQJ Jxx but you play in only 4H (not five hearts down) opposite This last hand is just one example why your partner doesn't cue-bid 4S over 4H. Now you will get to either 6H or 5Hs (of course, since you assume your partner has control of clubs, you get to 6H I suspect, but even 5H is in severe danger, as they have the club AK and one of them will have a singleton or doubleon, so they may take the first two club tricks and a club ruff. It is amazing how better a bidder YOUR PARTNER will become, if you make it easy for him to bid logically. Your 4D cue-bid made it very clear, that you are trying for slam. Looking at AKQ of spades, and not hearing a 4 club cue-bid, it is also very clear that you have tremendously strong red suits. But, again, it is equally clear you have no club control. You saidI do not think (personally) it is incumbent for the heart bidder to show a club control... He has a right to expect that suit isnt a problem... He has to find out about spade cards before he can really get excited... Over 4s I would bid 5c (actually looking for seven) showing 2d round control. Here your logic is fatally flawed. You want to find out about your partner's SPADE control, but by skipping over your CLUB control, you place the emphasis SQUARELY on the club suit. If you don't cue-bid your club control, the only way you will find out about the spade control is if your partner has BOTH a club control and a SPADE control. Paradoxically, the best way to find out about the spade control is to cue-bid your club control. There is no reason to wait "until" your partner cue-bids 4S to show your second round club control by bidding 5C. You can show that at the four level while placing the emphasis on the SPADE suit instead of the CLUB suit. And again, I think your position that no one needs to cue-bid openers suit to show a control a very weak cue-bidding strategy. You saidHow can he NOT show partner the spade cards when partner is so clearly fishing for that information? Logically, partner is NOT yet fishing for SPADE information. He is fishing for CLUB information. Partner could very likely be...S-void H-AKQTxxx D-AKx C-xxx orS-xx H-AKQTxxx D-A c-xxx So I agree that over 4D your partner is fishing alright, but he has casted his net looking for a bid CLUB Fish. You saidThis is a STRONG auction and to NOT bid spades would say to me that opener's points are all concentrated in the club suit... exactly the information that responder cannot act on. Again, to be overly redundant, to find out about SPADES, all you had to do was show your CLUB control. YOU TOLD your partner that clubs was a problem, and your partner looks at his hand and says, YUP, if you think clubs are a problem, I do too.... You saidI don't even think this one is a close call... I am truly surprised 3 people took the position that responder had to cue bid his club shortness while no one thought that it was important to show where opener's real concentration of strength was... Maybe rather than being surprised, you should stop and take a look at how the rest of the world plays CUE-BIDDING. First we don't ASSUME our partners only open a suit headed by ACE or KING. Second, we describe our controls so partner figure out what it is we need from him. I happen to favor cue-bidding first or second round controls up the line. Thus, my auction would have been.... 1C-1h-2h-3C-3s-4nt-ACE REPLY-6H, or, on your auction where you cue-bid first round controls first....1C-1H-2H-3H-3N-4C-4S(or 5H)-> getting to slam. Over 5H you know you are off C-ACE, over 4S, you can ask aces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 In what way, shape or form did partner deny a club control? 3D should show shape. It is NOT some form of advanced cue bid. I would respond to 3D by bidding 3NT. In otherwords, I would respond as if it was showing shape and value and exploring best game contract. When partner pulls 3NT, it turns the 3D into an advanced cue-bid. And now, that he has bypassed clubs twice, he has denied a club control (distibutional or stregnth). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 I would respond to 3D by bidding 3NT. In otherwords, I would respond as if it was showing shape and value and exploring best game contract. When partner pulls 3NT, it turns the 3D into an advanced cue-bid. And now, that he has bypassed clubs twice, he has denied a club control (distibutional or stregnth). I'm well aware of what an advance cue bid is.However, I don't think that these normally apply when the captain has not had the opportunity to show ANYTHING about shape. If 3D can be intepreted as an advanced cue, then the only thing that is known about the 1H bidders hand is that he has 4+ hearts. This makes it impossible to have any kind of intelligent auction or to judge how the two hands fit together. Responder's first rebid needs to be natural so that partner can understand whether the hand type is balanced, single suited, or two suited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bglover Posted March 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Well, I am totally in agreement with Richard's comments here (saved me a lot of writing, thx) and I stand by my logic-- nothing Ben has said has swayed me in the least, but this is why I have posted this auction... I thought it might generate a little action (sorely needed around here lately). But, I think we can all agree that if the opener had responded 3nt instead of 3h over 3d, then the auction actually becomes easier, as now responder pulls by bidding 4c, which clearly cannot be to play... That was the REAL mistake in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easy Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Most seem to think that opener should rebid 3n over 3d. Question. If 3d is a game try with hearts as trump suit. should opener accept the game try by bidding 3n or reject the game try and bid 3h? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 hrothgar said (btw, I do this color thing because the quote boxes are so darn small you can't read it) "However, I don't think that these normally apply when the captain has not had the opportunity to show ANYTHING about shape." I disagree totally. The great thing about being CAPTAIN is you don't have to show anything about your shape...especially on an auction like this. Your partner is a) minimum (2H bid), B) balanced with something in spades (3NT bid). I don't think the CAPTAIN has to describe his hand, its the job of the first mate to do the descibing. hrothgar said "If 3D can be intepreted as an advanced cue, then the only thing that is known about the 1H bidders hand is that he has 4+ hearts. This makes it impossible to have any kind of intelligent auction or to judge how the two hands fit together." 3D can NOT BE interpreted as an advanced cue-bid until after opener pulls 3NT. Now opener is no longer 4+, but 5+ and showing slam interest. You said you knew what an advanced cue bid but maybe others don't -- when you bid a suit like 3D its first carries ia natural meaning, but the second CUE-BID converts the first from a normal "natural bid" to a cue-bid. After opener rebid 3NT and responder pulls, responder knows exactly how well the hands fit together and very closely the exact point count of opener. (opener is limited and probably only 3 hearts). So when he pulls 3NT he knows exactly what he is doing, what information he needs, and how he is going to find what he needs to know. hrothgar said Responder's first rebid needs to be natural so that partner can understand whether the hand type is balanced, single suited, or two suited. Why? I disagree totally. Does it matter that responder doesn't try to describe any of these hands specifically as one suiter, two suiter or balanced? 1) xxx AKQTxxx AK x2) x AKQTxxx AK xxx3) xx AKQTx AKQJ xx4) xxx AKQTx AKQJ x5) x AKQTxx AKQ xxx6) xx AKQTxxxx A xx7) x AKQTx AKQxx xx8 xx AKQTx AKQxx x He doesn;t have to describe his hand specifically. He just needs his partner to co-operate logically. The bidding up to 3NT is ok. Over 3NT with 1, 4, and 8 he cue-bids 4C, and you get to 6H (knowing you are off the CLUB ACE) without ever discovering if opener is one suited (number 1) two suited (number eight) or somewhere in between (number 4). With 2, 3, 5, 6 and 7 he can re-cue bid 4D and you stop safely in 4 hearts, again without the captain ever revealing the nature of his hand. That is the essecences of being CAPTAIN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 I stand by my logic-- nothing Ben has said has swayed me in the least, but this is why I have posted this auction... You still stand by it is reasonable to PLAY (expect) that when your partner opens a a suit he will have first or second round control in the bid suit? This hand, of course, proves that is not the case. But since you didn't open this one, does the following hand look familar? S-KQ97 H-875 D-AKJ C-J86 ? you opened it 1Club yesterday how about S-AQ42 H-AT D-J642 C-AK2 ? opened 1D At the very least, if nothing else, you should at least admit that people open suits without the A or K quite frequently. I don't know what the percentage would be, but I would think 20% or 25% would not be a surprise to me. At the very least, you generated a lot of discussion about cue-bidding. But I already knew that our cue-bidding understanding is quite different from a 5H contract we got too and you started another very long thread here to discuss and a slam hand from a few months ago. The long discussion in this thread doesnt; prove anyones view is right or wrong. Nor does it mean that your view is wrong, but of course, my view is right. B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bglover Posted March 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Hi all, I am totally with "the" inquiry. Maybe just one more thought about another part of the bidding.Didn`t this hand "proofes" (as much as one hand can B)) that it is no good idea to raise the major respond on any single hand with 3 card support? (Like your pd wanted you to do?) I like it with unbalanced hands. But here...If you had used the same approach Aunt any would use, the auction starts with: 1 Club-1 Heart1 NT 3 Diamond (5/5 Gameforcing)3 Heart 4 Club (3 Card support, Club control, but no spades control)4 Diamond (spades control, NO diamond control) ... 4 NT5 Diamond 6 Heart and claiming.... Isn`t bridge easy? Kind Regards Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 hrothgar said (btw, I do this color thing because the quote boxes are so darn small you can't read it) "However, I don't think that these normally apply when the captain has not had the opportunity to show ANYTHING about shape." I disagree totally. The great thing about being CAPTAIN is you don't have to show anything about your shape...especially on an auction like this. Your partner is a) minimum (2H bid), B) balanced with something in spades (3NT bid). I don't think the CAPTAIN has to describe his hand, its the job of the first mate to do the descibing. Potentially you might prefer to switch to a relay system.You might find that this suits your bidding style better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Why? I disagree totally. Does it matter that responder doesn't try to describe any of these hands specifically as one suiter, two suiter or balanced? 1) xxx AKQTxxx AK x2) x AKQTxxx AK xxx3) xx AKQTx AKQJ xx4) xxx AKQTx AKQJ x5) x AKQTxx AKQ xxx6) xx AKQTxxxx A xx7) x AKQTx AKQxx xx8 xx AKQTx AKQxx x I think that these hands expose the crux of our disagreement. I would never respond 1H on hands1, 2, 5, or 6. I consider all of these to be classic examples of strong jump shifts. My understanding is that most "standard" systems still use Strong Jump Shifts over minor suit openings. As specific examples, the best consensus regarding 2/1 is undoubtedly Bridge World Standard which explictly uses strong jump shifts over minor suit openings. As I recall, Washington standard uses WJS in competition, but uses strong jump shifts in non-competitive auctions. SAYC is also based on Strong Jump Shifts. Avoiding "perversions" like the need to rebid 3D on these hand types is a major reason why strong jump shifts are still part of standard. Rebidding 3D on any/all of these hands make it impossible for partner to intelligently cooperate with the bidding process. He will have no way to understand which conver cards and distributional controls are significant. Your slam invitational sequences later in the auction will be reduced to uni-dimensional "min-max" range asks with no way to focus the auction. For what its worth, I wasn't being faceitious when I suggested looking at relay systems. [i prefer them to standard] If you want to play a system in which one player is captain and master-minding the contract, then you might as well chose a bidding system that is optimized for this type of information exchange. Your attempt to force "standard" into the same mold is a dreadfully inefficient use of bidding space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 I have tried relay systems, including a one week horrible result with Moscito, but I do quite alright with SAYC and 2/1 and normal precision. It is true that many systems use jumpshifts as strong, but many do not. Bridge Base Online Advanced, for instance. I assumed a jumpshift would be weak, but it doesn't change my bidding or the meaning of captaincy. It was just to illustrate the point that the CAPTAIN doesn't have to describe his hand, he is trying to give specific information, but rather recieve it. As an aside, I don't prefer play jump shifts as weak or strong. The disadvantage of strong jumpshift is it is too rare (even if you include the hand with a five+ suit and good fit for opener and just enough to force to game as a minimum), and the weak jump shift, while more frequent experience shows it is of marginal value, if wide-ranging, and less frequent if very disciplined (in competition, wjs is obviously better). I myself, however, use all jumps to major or minor as FIT JUMPS and the appropriate stregth for the level of the bid. At very least, it helps me and my partner to judge degree of fit quickly for LOTT decisions, and there is negative inference for auctions were fit jump was not made, and support shows up later. Also solves some rebid problems with four card minor fit and a five card major. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bglover Posted March 24, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Some thoughts here... (1) As to captain-crew and this hand... After 3D in sequence originally given, if partner chooses NOT to bid 3N and 3H shows a minimum (re Easy's post), then 4D is CLEARLY a slam try with most likely 5-5 reds. Given that information, to NOT bid 4s over 4d is, to me, beyond comprehension because it can easily be deduced partner has 1 or 0 clubs. It is for this reason that I have found all arguments blaming responder for NOT CUE BIDDING HIS CLUB STIFF unpersuasive. It also brings up a secondary point... RESPONDER IS IN CONTROL. He has asked 2 TIMES about spade controls and 2 TIMES opener hides them and yet Ben and others continue to focus on responder not showing his second round control in clubs. I don't think this is right at all given these circumstances. I think opener (crew) is obligated to show his spade cards... I've read all the posts and I think Richard is the only one who got it right (of course that is my opinion only). 4D so clearly paints a picture of responder's hand that the rest should be a cake walk for opener... (2) As to jump shifting... Well, it isn't wrong, but it sure isn't right either when 5-5. To start the bidding at the 2 level with responder's hand with all that information to be passed, well, it's just a problem because he has to bid diamonds 2 times in a lot of cases,,, and 3nt may well be the best spot absent fitting cards in opener's hand if there is a misfit.. Don't get me wrong, i am a big propenent of strong jumps, but they must be used judiciously because they use up so much space... A 5-5 hand shouldn't usually jump unless it can guarantee the 6 level on its own (this hand was very nice, but not that nice). (3) And lastly, I entirely agree that if you respond 1nt instead of 2h this hand is so much easier to bid. Responder's 3D bid now makes the hand a snap.... The reason I mention this is that I have a partner that insists on 3 card raises, which I really do not like. Even with partners that insist on 4 card raises, I will occasionally raise with AJX of better... but as a rule, I have found that, when playing with partners that like 3 card raises always, these kinds of problems do come up frequently. Even when I play SAYC (which I mostly do in "real life") I play 4 card raises because these sequences often create problems... The 1nt rebid conveys (for me anyway) a more accurate picture of opener's hand, and the various gadgets we use (checkback, NMF, etc.) give us clarity down the line if we need it. I have found too often that playing 3n is correct even with a 5-3 fit. Since opener can have either 3 or 4 cards for his raise, you often miss 3n (one hand or the other can't bid it and you miss it) and play a poor fit at the 4 level... Just my 2 pennies on this treatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Steve, Could you please explain, in some details, your cue-bidding rules. I know you said you cue-bid first round controls before second round controls (which is wrong in my view, but I know it is very popular choice). Then after showing second round controls, you cue-bid second round controls (sometimes, obviousl to this day you refuse to show your second round control in clubs). What is the purpose of your cue-bids? And please, please, instead of just saying by not cue-bidding clubs you "assume" your partner has a club control. Explain to me your logic for DENYING a club control. I will tell you my cue-bidding strategy in a situation like this (we will ignore Serious 3NT and LTTC for this)... let's just say that after opener showed minimum and three card fit, if responder is still cue-bidding, he is looking for slam. Once, as opener or responder, I find all suits have at least first or second round control, then I can use BLACKWOOD if I like (since no two quick losers exist). So my cue-bid scheme is designed specifically to make sure that we are not off two quick losers in any specific suit. With such a scheme, your sequence SHINES A BRIGHT LIGHT on the CLUB suit. As Captain, you are telling your partner that you are interested in SLAM and that you have NO CONTROL in clubs. Nothing could be simplier or clearer. You are seeking, primarily, information about clubs. Now, there is no doubt you also need information about spades, but only if your partner has a club control. Here are three hands, and how would yhou bid them.... S- H-AKQTx D-AKQTx C-xxxS-x H-AKQTx D-AKQTx C-xxS-xx H-AKQTx D-AKQTx C-xS-xxx H-AKQTx D-AKQTx C- In the first case, your auction, 4D-4S- leads to down on a club lead. In the second case, it leads to a fairly safe, but extra high 5H contract, assuming that after 4S you can stop in 5Hs (although you may lose 2C and 1D and remember it is you who assumes partner has a club stopper, not me so you may still be in 6H). And of course the fourth, you still have a chance for 7 your way of course you still have a potential D loser. But if you would be kind enough to cue-bid 4C on the two hands with a control in clubs, your partner will now show his spade control and you get to 6H on both. And if you bid a logical 4D on the two with two or three small clubs, your partner will rightlfully realize that you are off two club tricks and stop safely in 4Hs. That is the purpose of cue-bidding, the sharing of information to make the appropriate high level decisions. I wait for your theory of cue-bidding. Make it fairly detailed, because quite frankly, what I have seen doens't seem to make much sense. What are you trying to achieve? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bglover Posted March 24, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Firstly, let me say I merely kibbitzed this hand... I did not play it, and if I did, I would have splintered clubs over a 2H raise.. It was a very slammish hand with a fit and that is how I bid these types of hands. Now, as to my cue bidding.. I admittedly am old school... I cue bid 1st round controls mainly (if I have AK in an unbid suit I will of course cue bid the 2d round control too given the opporunity). Now, having said this, I pick and choose which hands need cue bidding vs. which hands need RKC. IMHO too often people cue bid when the information needed is better found using RKC and if your risking a 5 level cue bid from partner which is going to destroy your RKC opportunity, i think treading carefuly is necessary. I am not fond of 2d round cue bids... they are misleading in my opinion.. If partner isn't looking at the ace he will always assume it IS the ace and now you reach 7 off an ace (seen it happen more than once). Having said all this, I will say that NOTHING REPLACES GOOD JUDGMENT. The reason i posted this little ditty was because I thought it would stir up a debate... Well, it succeeded. I can find fault with the way the hand was bid by either party... but, honestly, this was not a hard slam to bid using 3 or 4 card raises, precision or Moscito or whatever... It required both parties using good judgment and sound deduction, and I thought there was a failure on this hand, and the opener had the same argument as the others...Why didn't my partner cue bid his stiff club? To repeat from my last post...4D clarifies the responder's hand so well that to continue to hide the AKQ of spades was not a system failure in my opinion, it was a judgment failure. Sure, the auction could have been more artful by responder, but he conveyed ENOUGH information for opener to reevaluate his holdings IMHO. This was the true failure of the sequence to me... unless, of course, he didn't belive his partner had 5 diamonds along with 5 hearts... but he should have. Once that information was conveyed there was nothing more to worry about.. Partner had 1 or 0 clubs... Absolutely. Why? Because he was worried about SPADES. The auction clearly shows that.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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