Kickback or natural

[CSGibson]

[hv=pc=n&s=sk96hak73dktcjt97&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=3ddp4dp4hp4sp]133|200[/hv]

 

Context: You are in a fairly new partnership with system notes, and you have decided to play kickback, but have not discussed this situation.

 

Would you bid as though 4♠ was intended as kickback?

 

What do you think the best agreement should be for this auction in context of a partnership where you have agreed to try kickback?

 

Are there any meta-rules about kickback that you have in your partnerships which would have clarified this situation?

[trevahound]

[hv=pc=n&s=sk96hak73dktcjt97&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=3ddp4dp4hp4sp]133|200[/hv]

 

Context: You are in a fairly new partnership with system notes, and you have decided to play kickback, but have not discussed this situation.

 

Would you bid as though 4♠ was intended as kickback?

 

What do you think the best agreement should be for this auction in context of a partnership where you have agreed to try kickback?

 

Are there any meta-rules about kickback that you have in your partnerships which would have clarified this situation?

 

Had the auction continued with doubler rebidding 4s and advancer bidding 4nt, that would be keycard ask, correct? How is this different? How else could responder set trumps and then ask? If advancer had a just spade moose, this wouldn't be a difficult problem to foresee, and advancer can't bid it this way. This is rule c for me (what else could partner have done earlier in the auction?).

 

But, just to torture myself I'm going to send this problem to my regular partners. :)

 

Brian Zaugg

[CSGibson]

Had the auction continued with doubler rebidding 4s and advancer bidding 4nt, that would be keycard ask, correct? How is this different? How else could responder set trumps and then ask? If advancer had a just spade moose, this wouldn't be a difficult problem to foresee, and advancer can't bid it this way. This is rule c for me (what else could partner have done earlier in the auction?).

 

But, just to torture myself I'm going to send this problem to my regular partners. :)

 

Brian Zaugg

 

 

Mostly I'd say that the argument for spades being spades, and 4N being keycard is that we don't need a natural 4N, and that being able to show a single-suited spade hand that is too good for 4S but not safe at the 5 level opposite a minimum take-out double is more important than being able to cue-bid spades in support of hearts.

 

Edit: Just to be clear, I am saying that is the argument, not necessarily endorsing the argument, though my natural inclination is to lean that way. I am interested in hearing what people have to say on this.

 

I guess that also begs the question: In a non-kickback partnership, is 4♠ a correction of strain, or a cue-bid?

 

If it is a correction of strain, then I can see a potential meta-agreement: when the standard auction would have shown a cue-bid, then its kickback; but when a standard auction would have shown a correction of strain, then that is also the agreement we have, and 4N becomes regular keycard.

Edited October 4, 2012 by CSGibson

[han]

Whoa Gibson!!!

[CSGibson]

Whoa Gibson!!!

 

Hey Han, what's up.

[JLOGIC]

It's natural dude, this is a standard way to bid a hand with, for exmaple, 4 spades and 5 clubs and a game force

[JLOGIC]

Kickback does not replace natural auctions. For example, 1D X p 4H p 4S is natural not kickback since you can double with a hand that wants to double and bid spades. Kickback replaces cuebidding auctions, so if 4S would normally be a cuebid then it is kickback.

[bluecalm]

so if 4S would normally be a cuebid then it is kickback.

 

What is 4NT in such auctions ?

[CSGibson]

What is 4NT in such auctions ?

 

 

Assuming it would be a spade Q in support of hearts.

[CSGibson]

Kickback does not replace natural auctions. For example, 1D X p 4H p 4S is natural not kickback since you can double with a hand that wants to double and bid spades. Kickback replaces cuebidding auctions, so if 4S would normally be a cuebid then it is kickback.

 

 

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense to me.

[trevahound]

It's natural dude, this is a standard way to bid a hand with, for exmaple, 4 spades and 5 clubs and a game force

 

Yeah, that makes the most sense, but I didn't think of it. How else could you show spades and clubs?

[Phil]

Clearly natch. 4N should be RKC for hearts.

 

In a cramped auction, kickback rarely applies.

[lalldonn]

My plan is to answer natural based on the thread title alone, then look at the hand.

 

 

...

 

 

Now that I have looked, I see I was right :)

 

I'm pretty sure I have never in my life answered this question as "kickback" even if I was playing it.

[Zelandakh]

A good basic starting rule for Kickback is that if it makes sense for a bid to be natural it is. It makes sense for 4♠ to be natural here.

[jillybean]

never mind

[Finch]

My plan is to answer natural based on the thread title alone, then look at the hand.

 

 

...

 

 

Now that I have looked, I see I was right :)

 

I'm pretty sure I have never in my life answered this question as "kickback" even if I was playing it.

 

well said.

 

We play 4S as keycard when hearts are trumps, but we also have a very simple metarule: 4S is never kickback in a contested auction.

[cherdano]

Context: You are in a fairly new partnership with system notes, and you have decided to play kickback.

Why?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I'm ready to see partner's hand ....

[jillybean]

If 4♠ is natural in this auction (3♦) X (P) 4♦ (P) 4♥ (P) 4♠ , and I am beginning to see why it should be.

 

Then 4N is KC in the same auction (3♦) X (P) 4♦ (P) 4♥ (P) 4n

 

and

 

(3♦) X (P) 4♦ (P) 4♠ (P) 5♥ a hand too good to bid 4♥ at the first turn?, if such a hand exists.

[CSGibson]

I'm ready to see partner's hand ....

 

 

partner did not pull this auction on me, or at least partner passed over 4♥. The 4♠ continuation was born of a question in the post-mortem about what it should be.

[CSGibson]

Why?

 

I was born in Ohio, on a farm. As a baby I was involved in a horrible house-fire. A stranger stopped, and helped my family to safety, braving the flames to rescue me. The stranger's name was Hank, and he became a very close family friend.

 

Over the years, Hank taught me a lot about the world outside of the farm - he had traveled all over the world while in the army, and had stories about Europe, Asia, and Africa which would blow my young mind. He taught me to appreciate the diversity in life.

 

Several years later, while on his deathbed, and while I was just getting into duplicate bridge, Hank made me promise one thing: If I had a chance to play kickback, I should take it. I didn't understand at the time; Hank didn't know bridge, and I didn't know the convention, but I always remembered what he said. Thus, anytime anyone proposes to play kickback, I say yes, out of memory for my dear friend Hank.

[cherdano]

:D :rolleyes: ;)

 

But in all seriousness, kickback is probably the single most disaster-prone convention. (Unless you ask me to play Ghestem, which I will always forget.)

[CSGibson]

:D :rolleyes: ;)

 

But in all seriousness, kickback is probably the single most disaster-prone convention. (Unless you ask me to play Ghestem, which I will always forget.)

 

At this point I've never had a kickback disaster (Jinx?). Obviously this has some element of luck to it since I am obviously not a master of kickback fundamentals, but its also because in partnerships where I play it, we are very active postmortem in asking questions about both the auctions that occurred and the auctions that didn't.

 

I would be reluctant to play kickback in a non-serious partnership, but in any partnership where we are serious enough to have system notes, I'll be ok with it.

[Trinidad]

:D :rolleyes: ;)

 

But in all seriousness, kickback is probably the single most disaster-prone convention. (Unless you ask me to play Ghestem, which I will always forget.)

In all seriousness, this is simply not true. There is one simple rule and Justin has given it.

Kickback replaces cuebidding auctions, so if 4S would normally be a cuebid then it is kickback.

In cases like the one in the OP, the real question is not: "Is 4♠ kickback?". The real question is the opposite: "Is 4♠ natural?". If you are not on the same wavelength with partner, you will have an accident. Whether the misunderstanding about 4♠ is kickback vs natural or cuebid vs natural or "Inverted Turbo Declarative Interrogative" vs natural is completely irrelevant. Everybody will have the same accident.

 

Does kickback have drawbacks? Yes, of course: You cannot use 4♠ as a cue in those cases where cueing would be better than ace asking. You will have to cue 4NT and you lost your ace ask. But kickback also has certain advantages.

 

And if you want to know what is the most disaster-prone convention, then it is kickback's brother: RKCB. Why? Because with one partner you play 1430 and with the other 0314. With kickback, you don't have that problem.

 

Rik

[gnasher]

I can think of one reason why Kickback may have more disasters than RKCB: people who think that Kickback is a good idea also tend to think that cue-bids above game are a waste of time, or too difficult. If you play normal Keycard but your partnership hardly ever bids 4♠ as a cue-bid, you will know that 4♠ was probably intended as natural. Playing Kickback, the same partnership will more often be in doubt about what 4♠ means.

 

Note that this is purely a theoretical analysis. I have never had a Kickback disaster, and I'm fairly sure I never will. I'm also not expecting any Ghestem disasters.