2nd-round splinter by responder

[bglover]

OK I'm a little clearer on what you are getting at, but I can't say I agree or am convinced by your arguments (but I'm a stubborn coot).

 

I won't address all of your points, just 1 significant one. If I rebid 2n in the sequence 1d-1s-2d, it is not artficial... it is showing stoppers and a willingnes to play 3N. SA bidding is very geared towards NT contracts (thats not a secret), and usually the best spot for a set of hands where one contains a 6 card minor is, in fact 3nt when there are game values. 2N is, of course passable, by opener with a dead minimum hand.

 

So, 2N is NOT artificial at all. If I lack a stopper in a suit, and for sake of this argument, let's assume its clubs, I would, indeed bid (1d-1s-2d) 2hearts (if I have 4 of them). If i have 3 hearts only, I will either rebid 2n (assuming I have enough points to almost insist on game as its invitational only) or I will PASS if I have a bad 11 or 10. If I lack a heart stopper but have a club stopper, my only choice with the invitational hand is 2n and hope partner can bid 3n.

 

Yes, I risk that partner may have no help for me if all my 11 points are in 2 suits (lets assume I am AKA) but they are good points, and hopefully partner's hand isnt AKQJ10x of diamonds and an oustide jack.

 

Of course, it's not perfect, but the good thing is I can pass out of a bad fit early, still show all hand types and continue to play weak openers. I am NEVER passing partner if i have 13 or 14, and I have ways to show this thru jumps, reverses, 4th suit forcing etc.

 

The gain is that playing weak openers in general will get you some number of tops just by mucking up the opponent's structured sequences before they ever get started, and of course, give partner a chance to compete on fits earlier.

 

But, if you play a weak opening style it is imperative that you have a way to stop the bidding early as well.

[Stephen Tu]

2N is, of course passable, by opener with a dead minimum hand.

OK, thanks for clearing that up. This contradicts your original description of 2nt as "13+"; if it was NF you should have put the upper limit on it. If 2nt is NF, then my original point of not being able to distinguish GF 5-5 S/H from GF 5-4 S/H still applies.

 

So, 2N is NOT artificial at all. If I lack a stopper in a suit, and for sake of this argument, let's assume its clubs, I would, indeed bid (1d-1s-2d) 2hearts (if I have 4 of them).

But how will partner know whether you have 5-4 and 11-12 pts, just lacking club stopper, vs. a weak 5-5 6-9? He won't know when to pass 2H and when to keep bidding.

 

Of course, it's not perfect, but the good thing is I can pass out of a bad fit early, still show all hand types and continue to play weak openers. I am NEVER passing partner if i have 13 or 14, and I have ways to show this thru jumps, reverses, 4th suit forcing etc.

 

But on some of the good hands partner will be on a guess since you have taken up your bidding space. Playing new suit = 1RF, it's still possible to pass out of a bad fit early, it just has to be done one bid earlier, passing the 2m rebid rather than trotting out the 2H call. Like I said you are only gaining on some subset of the weak major 2 suiters opposite the min 6 bagger, sometimes finding a better major partial, while losing on some subset of the stronger hands getting to inferior partials or games.

[bglover]

Well keep in mind we are opening weak (11 point) hands the way we play... so you have to have a wider range to invite game since opener can not define his hand well with his 2d bid when it is showing some minimum (since the range is 11-15 instead of the normal 13-15), so our 2nt invite is, of necessity a good 11 to a bad 14 (a good 14 you are going to have to bid 3n and not be able to explore completely for stoppers... that's a given and something of a flaw, but a small one). To partially cover this, we also play that a NT rebid by opener shows extras as well... so that 1d-1s-2d-2h-2n shows around 14 (with 15 would rebid 3n obviously) and the 2/1 bidder is allowed to pass with a dead 10-11 point hand... or can bid 3 of minor to sign off there if NT seems in appropriate. Thus, opener's 3d bid avails us an opportunity to refine the point range further still without getting too high (ya we play 2n a lot... and its usually a good spot).

 

But we gain in 2 significant ways... 1st being the number of additional hands we are competing on and mucking the opponent's auctions, AND (capitalized since it is germane here), the number of hands we get to 2 of a major and sign off in while the field has gotten a level higher. We aren't missing any games the field is bidding anyway although we risk playing 3n occasionally where a 4-3 major fit may play better, but that is rare enough that we can live with that.

 

As I said, the rebid of a suit as stop sign was around for a long time before SAYC was developed and I still think it is useful, and I will also say that I know of many people who still play it, even if it is not formally part of the Yellow Card system. There are good reasons to play it this way, and that is all I have been saying all along.

 

If other people do not want to, I certainly do not blame them, and if they do not play weakish openings (as my partners and I do), it lessens the advantage to the bid. But within the framework of my bidding structure, the bid works well (and comes up a lot out of necessity). We play a lot of 22 point fits my way, so you need an early bailout structure.

 

Do keep in mind this is a very matchpoint-oriented stragegy. I would not necessarily recommend it for playing IMPS. But, at matchpoints, having a weak opening structure is a significant advantage (as is the ability to play 1nt if the field is playing primarily 2/1).