2nd-round splinter by responder

[JSilver]

In the auction 1D-1S-2D, how can responder show strong diamonds, a stiff heart and slam interest?

 

On this particular hand, opener held xxx, AKT, AT9xxx, x, while responder held AKJT8, x, KQxx, QJ9. Clearly, if you change the heart king to the spade queen, 6D is an excellent contract, while on the actual hand it's around even money.

[bglover]

I would certainly think a 4h bid at this stage would show exactly that... 2h would show a 4 card suit, 3h would be a good hand with good hearts possibly only 4 but with extra values i think). 4h could only be a splinter then... It is certainly not to play and is certainly forcing and I think should clearly be the bid you are seeking after partner rebids his suit.

[flytoox]

I would certainly think a 4h bid at this stage would show exactly that... 2h would show a 4 card suit, 3h would be a good hand with good hearts possibly only 4 but with extra values i think). 4h could only be a splinter then... It is certainly not to play and is certainly forcing and I think should clearly be the bid you are seeking after partner rebids his suit.

 

I had similar problem yesterday when I reached a h slam. I hold:

S: AKXX

H: QT9

D: AJXXX

C: X

 

PD HOLDS:

S: QX

H: AKJXX

D: KXX

C: XXX

 

OP DIDNOT BID, PD OPEN 1H, THEN 1H-2D-2N-4C-4D-6H. THOUGH NOT VERY SCIENTIFIC,.

BUT PD TOOK 4C AS GERBER, and I think it should be cuebid showing c control. Am I right? We use 2/1. I think 4c cant be suit, after 2/1, there is really no point to jump, so the only explanantion should be cuebid based on h fit. right?

[Codo]

Hi fly,

 

looking in your hands, of course 4 Club is a splinter with Hearts.

But Gerber or at least gerber after last bid was NT is very common, so your pds idea was perfectly reasonable too.

 

Good luck, that you blast to slam. Else, he had taken 4 NT to play, which had been no success.

 

Kind Regards

 

Roland

[the hog]

Seeing that 2H is forcing, is not 3H the splinter? Hardly needed to show 5-5 good hand!

[Rado]

Hi all,

 

Some modern ideas quote :

1D-1S

2D-3H as 5-5 and exactly INV

 

while :

1D-1S

2D-2H as F1 showing weak or FG hand

 

when accepting the above the 2 possible solutions:

1. 1D-1S

2D-4H as Spliner ( very easy to be passed though)

2. 1D-1S

2D-3C

3... - 4D picture bid showing singleton He + SI

 

Regards, Rado

[bglover]

Regarding The Hog's comment, I don't think that just because 2h is a 1 round force that makes 3 hts a splinter.

 

If 2h had been a reverse 2d bid then 3h would be a splinter... Splinters only occur if responder's 2d bid would create a game force without a jump. Thus, in the sequence given (1d-1s-2d), since 2h can be made on as little as 10 points (and responder can pass at the 3 level opener's next bid), a jump to 3h shows extras and creates a game force.

 

So, any bid that is one above a bid that would create a game force would be a splinter in support of the last bid suit.

 

For example:

 

1c-1h-2s..game force, says nothing about hts

 

1c-1h-3s-- splinter in support of hts

 

There cannot be a splinter unless (1) there is already a game force in the auction or (2) the splinter itself creates the game force (as in the example above).

 

Here's a sequence a partner got wrong a few weeks ago:

 

1c-1s-2h-4d. Partner took it as a dimond suit... It was a splinter in support of hearts. Why? Because 3d would be 4th suit forcing and create a game force in any case so the one-level jump now is a splinter (one level more than needed = splinter).

[luis]

I'd take

2h as forcing so 3h and 4h don't show hearts.

 

3h as splinter

4h as Exclusion RKCB with a heart void

[bglover]

I took this off a bridge site:

 

In order to make a Splinter Bid, the opener jumps one level higher than a jump shift or makes a Jump Reverse, and, of course, the responder does likewise

 

Altho Luis may play that sequence as a splinter I don't think most others do... since a 2h bid would not be a reverse a jump to 3h merely shows game forcing values and 4+ hearts. Had the sequence gone 1d-1h-2d- now 3s sould be a splinter, as 2s would be a reverse so 1 level higher than needed for the forcing bid = splinter for last suit.

 

Maybe this isn't as well defined as I think it to be.. Perhaps others can chip in here.

[inquiry]

1D-1S-2D-?

 

Steve asked for others to step in. So let me give my, perhaps, minority view on the auction.

 

First, for me, is 4H a splinter on 1D-1S-2D-4H? The answer for me is no. I play 4H as RKCB, with the agreed upon trump suit as diamonds (4S would be splinter). I use kantar Roman keycard blackwood and kantar rules on this. This is a specific agreement I would have with my partner(s). Without such agreements, I would play the very high jump here as voidwood I guess (showing void).

 

Second, is 3H best used as a splinter? No. I think 3H should be saved for major two suiter. With NMF available (3C), this should show an invitational two suiter (yes, I know a jump SOUNDS strong, but there are better ways to show the big two suiter using 3C then rebidding hearts, or bidding 2H which is one round force, and then NOT rebidding 3H).

 

Third, if I can't bid either 3H or 4H as splinter, how can I possibly show this hand? Well, here it is simple. Bid 3C now, and then rebid in 4 diamonds next (or 4H with a jump over 3D if responder bids that and you really want to make sure partner understands). With a singleton club, you could reverse the bids, bid 2H now, and then jump/bid 4C.

 

Why not simply bid 4C over 2D? You could do that, but some people who play 3C as NMF on this auction (me for instance), would play 4C over 2D as 4S-6C and "weak". Of course not too weak as you could always pass 2D, but weak it is because you went past 3NT, and you didn't bid 3C/4C.

 

There are many ways to play these auctions. If you play 2H on this auction as non-forcing (not even 1 round), then 3H would have to be forcing.

 

Ben

[Yzerman]

This post is more evidence of the depth of bridge, and the absolute dependence on PARTNERSHIP and PARTNERSHIP agreements. Readubg this thread, almost everyone that did respond had different thoughts for there was not one consistent approach.

 

The only advice I would offer for bidding hands such as these is that IF the auction was not discussed or no previous agreements exist, choose the option that is least likely to cause a problem or least likely to be misunderstood. Also, remember that in this auction (in theory) it is now responders responsibility to place the contract for opener has made a limiting bid (although ambiguously limiting).

[JSilver]

 

So, any bid that is one above a bid that would create a game force would be a splinter in support of the last bid suit.

 

For example:

 

1c-1h-2s..game force, says nothing about hts

 

1c-1h-3s-- splinter in support of hts

 

There cannot be a splinter unless (1) there is already a game force in the auction or (2) the splinter itself creates the game force (as in the example above).

 

 

This appeals to me as a clear, simple agreement to have. On the other hand, making a high reverse in a 3-card suit (3C on the second round) seems like an invitation to confusion. Assuming we sort this one out, next time, I'll be 5-4 or 5-5 in the blacks with partner 6-4 in the minors, and we'll miss a club slam.

[bglover]

Altho this hand does not contain a splinter, it does cover some of the other things we have been talking about in this thread:

 

k10xxx

AKxx

Axx

x

 

Partner opens 1c, you bid 1s, partner bids 1n, what do you bid? At the table I saw this hand, responder bid 2h, partner passed it out with 13 highs and 3433 distribution.

 

Admittedly, playing NMF or checkback covers this situation nicely (instead of a 2h bid responder can bid 2d asking partner if he has either 3s or 4h in his hand). But, even given that, should opener raise 2h to 3 or should he just pass on a minimum?

[JSilver]

If you do play NMF or checkback, then 2H is clearly the wrong bid. If you don't, then I still think it's wrong, because it's not forcing. Since Opener rebid NT, I don't think there can be any confusion with 3H. It should be forcing, showing at least 5-4 in the majors.

[the hog]

This post is more evidence of the depth of bridge, and the absolute dependence on PARTNERSHIP and PARTNERSHIP agreements. Readubg this thread, almost everyone that did respond had different thoughts for there was not one consistent approach.

 

 

This is a fair comment. Pd and I do not play Sayc and I don't pretend to know much about it even though I do play it on line with pu pds. If we DID play sayc and he pulled this sequence on me D 1S 2D 3H I would be 100% certain HE meant it as a splinter, because of experience in other similar sounding auctions, even if the specific sequence had never been discussed.

[bglover]

My only response to that is "it's a jump shift... 100% forcing to game." If you play with me as your pick up partner then I will not treat it as a splinter but as a game forcing bid with some number of hearts.

 

A jump shift by responder on the 2d bid is showing GAME VALUES only... A 1st round jump shift shows SLAM INTEREST. This is true in SAYC and in 2/1 game force.

 

The very reason I posted that earlier hand on my last missive was to cover this bidding situation. Jsilver said that even not playing NMF or checkback 2H was the incorrect bid. She was right... the correct bid for that hand is, indeed THREE HEARTS when not playing some sort of new forcing bid over 1n rebid, so that partner cannot pass.

 

Now, had this sequence gone 1d-1s-2c, the correct bid with 13 points is 2h (may or may not show 4+ hts but is 100% forcing to game due to 4th suit forcing). Opener with 4 hts should raise, with 3 or less rebid NT if possible. With a 5th heart responder rebids hts at the 3 level.

 

Indeed, you lose nothing by following system here. A splinter is still available (4hts as discussed). You get to show more hand types this way (some people do play that the jump to 3hts promises 5+ hts and partner must choose a major). In the sequence 1d-1s-2d-? there is no forcing bid besides 3c the way you are proposing...now there is a giant hole if responder has 5 spds and 5 hts. Why? because after a 2d rebid by opener he can choose to pass 2h (he has limited his hand to <=15 and 6 diamonds and a 2h response promises only 10ish points). With 2362 shape and no club stopper he may well decide there is a misfit that can't be resolved and choise pass as best option.

[the hog]

Why? because after a 2d rebid by opener he can choose to pass 2h (he has limited his hand to <=15 and 6 diamonds and a 2h response promises only 10ish points). With 2362 shape and no club stopper he may well decide there is a misfit that can't be resolved and choise pass as best option.

 

OK so 2H is nf! I guess I'm glad you wrote that, as I would have treated it as 100% forcing. Can't say as I think this is an effective or a wise treatment, but if its "the system", I guess its "the system". I knew there was a reason I did not play sayc.

[bglover]

Nope... just semi forcing after opener limits his hand with a rebid of suit.

 

This is a drawback to natural bidding no doubt, but I've been playing it so long (did I mention, I'm OLD?) that I've come to accept these limitations and not let them bother me much.

 

Once someone limits their hand (either thru a NT bid of some sort or a suit rebid) there is no such thing as a "forcing bid" in SAYC that isn't a reverse or a jump of some sort.

 

That's why so many of these little gadgets were invented... to clarify this situation... and there are also a lot of gadgets invented to prevent responder from having to rebid a 5 card suit (support x and NMF being 2 examples).

 

It's not very natural after all is it? But I'm used to it so I deal with all these bits of junk. And, let me tell ya something else, SAYC without those little gadgets can be a nightmare... trust me.

[Stephen Tu]

No way. 1D-1S-2D-2H has always been forcing in SA. The SA general rule is "simple new suit by an unpassed responder are forcing, except after opener's 1nt rebid". (Then many players make an exception to the exception playing NMF). It's extremely awkward to have to describe various good hands both majors by having to bid an artificial 3c here. If you have a bad hand with both majors you can pass and play in opener's probable 6 cd suit, not usually disastrous.

 

Now, certainly some modern players have gone to 1C-1S-2C-2H NF, non-invitational, with 2D here as "Bourke relay" or similar, the only forcing option. But that's a special agreement, and even these players don't usually play the 1D-1S-2D-2H auction the same way.

 

"NMF" is used to describe new minor after a 1nt rebid. Use of 2d as artificial F on the 1c-1s-2c auction is called something else.

[bglover]

I'm not sure you read my post correctly as NMF was not really a focus of it at all... just an example of a gadget that's been developed to get past some of the awkward sequences that come about in natural bidding.

 

However, what I said about a non-jump bid of a new suit is only semi forcing if partner has limited his hand I stand by, although I am sure not all play it that way nor would I even recommend that it ever be passed. If you read what I wrote--Once someone limits their hand (either thru a NT bid of some sort or a suit rebid),-- it is not inconsistent with what you wrote... the only difference is that I covered both a NT limiting bid and a suit rebid limiting bid, and many people play both as nonforcing. The point is and was that by not jumping a level there is some "risk" that partner will pass if he plays this way...and it isn't uncommon at all.

 

Thus, the way to show a full opener on the 2d round of bidding (assuming a reverse isn't proper) is to jump a level-- even if you play that a new suit after a minor rebid is a 1 round force. This way, a double jump is clearly a splinter (where this thread originated) while the jump shift is a game force probably showing 5-5 majors.

 

CF the example hand I laid out earlier...The NT bidder passed because his partner failed to jump with 13 HCPs. He was in his right to do so since his partner indicated less than 13 by his FAILURE to jump on the 2d bid. In the sequence originally discussed (1D-1S-2D), if responder opts to bid 2H he risks opener passing (if opener has an 11 count and 6 diamonds for example). It depends on opening styles... I play SAYC with light openings (I feel that's the most advantageous way to play it) so any rebid of a suit is non forcing.

 

I will repeat something I said in an earlier thread, so that you understand... I may not play exactly standard SAYC. I was playing Standard American long before the Yellow Card was develioped so I have some holdovers from way back when... So, my way may not be the "book" way exactly and I am aware of this. So, perhaps I should couch this a tad by restating that under "old" Standard American a rebid by opener of his original suit created a nonforcing situation absent a reverse or jump shift by responder.

[JRG]

From my old Acol and SA (Goren?) days, I concur with 2over1.

 

Once opener limits his hand with a 1NT or minimum rebid in his original suit, a non-reverse or non jump-shift bid by responder was not forcing. In fact, the way we played Acol, a minimum rebid by opener was a flashing warning sign: it was almost certain that he would pass the new suit response unless he took preference.

[bglover]

Absolutely. I don't know when the rule changed that a rebid of suit did not throw up a stop sign, but I can't say that it didn't since so many people and authorities play this as a new suit bid is still forcing one round.

 

Certainly, there is a logical reason why a suit rebid by opener should be treated in the same light as a NT rebid-- since both bids have almost exactly the same meaning (1nt bid by opener-- PARTNER i HAVE A MINIMUM AND WE DONT WANT TO GET TOO HIGH...Suit rebid-- PARTNER I HAVE A MINIMUM AND A SIX CARD SUIT), there is good reason to play them the same way.

 

Responder still has several ways to keep the bidding from dying with apporpriate values, by jumping or reversing, just like before the change occurred. The advantage is, of course, that you can bail at the 2 level in a misfit instead of the three level... that is a significant advantage.

 

I am not trying to persuade anyone that they should adopt this approach... just that it works for me and has been around for a long time.

[Stephen Tu]

Acol, which has always had many more NF sequences, or SA of 60 years ago a NF auction of 1d-1s-2d-2h I can agree with. But having to jump to force has been discarded as too awkward & space consuming on the stronger hands for many decades.

 

Do you have a book published within the last 30 years treating this sequence as NF? 40 years?

 

It's more feasible to play NF new suit after 1nt because there's more room available. Also it's more important to be able to get to 2H since a decent fit is more likely than after the 1m ... 2m rebid case. In the latter case passing is often reasonable.

[bglover]

I suggest you reread your post. There is no logical response to what i said and I can't understand your argument.

 

Look, I am not disputing that most people play the sequence 1d-1s-2d-2h as a 1 round force. I do not, but I play very weak openings in SA and so it is part of my system that it isn't forcing.

 

My point is, was and will be that once opener has limited his hand, it makes sense to play that a new suit that isn't a reverse (or jump shift) is non forcing. Why? Because the other methods are still available.

 

I said in my post my ways are from way back when and that I am not trying to persuade anyone to change to them. I have had a ton of success playing this way, but then I understand the workings of it because I've had a lot of practice playing this way.

 

Your statement gives no logical extension as to why partner should be forced to bid again in a misfit. The sequence 1d-1s-2d-2h still does not create a game force so all you are doing is craeting a 3 level sequence instead of a 2 with no advantage that I can see... Now, as part of the way I play, 1d-1s-2d- 2n shows extra values (13+) to cover this situation where I have invite values (3h bid by opener shows game interest, 4 hearts and ability to play in 4hts or 3n). So, my system has covered all the bases... What I have that you do not is the ability to play at the 2 level. At MPs thats a SIGNIFICANT advantage and nobody is showing me the downside. When you can show me where I am losing something by bidding this way I will be glad to acknoledge I've been doing it wrong for all these years.

 

As to "It's more feasible to play NF new suit after 1nt because there's more room available. Also it's more important to be able to get to 2H since a decent fit is more likely than after the 1m ... 2m rebid case. In the latter case passing is often reasonable" statement, u are either agreeing with me that 2h is passable (my whole point) in 1d-1s-2d-2h or you left something out that I am missing... Please explain so I can properly respond.

[Stephen Tu]

My point is, was and will be that once opener has limited his hand, it makes sense to play that a new suit that isn't a reverse (or jump shift) is non forcing. Why? Because the other methods are still available.

Playing new suit as a 1RF does several things. One is that you can bid something on invitational hands looking for a superior major fit, with tolerance for opener's minor, without fear of being dropped in an inferior spot when opener doesn't know you have a fit for his original suit. You can get back to 3 of opener's minor, or maybe 2NT. If new suit isn't forcing, you have to decide whether to force to game immediately, or give up on finding major fits with inv hands. Your only inv bid is 2nt, and partner with a min won't be able to remove to a possible major fit at 3M, since he won't know whether you have extra major length or not.

 

With GF hands, you can distinguish 5-4 hands from 5-5 hands, since you don't have to jump with both to force. The jump can be strictly 5+-5+. With a stopper in one of the two remaining suits instead of the other, you can probe and stop in 3m rather than 4m if 3nt isn't playable. Opener has room to rebid 3m without a stop in the 4th suit, and doesn't have to guess what to bid after 1d-1s-2d-3h with no club stopper & no fit for either major. Your methods he could bid 3nt and you could be off the first 5 club tricks.

 

Your statement gives no logical extension as to why partner should be forced to bid again in a misfit.

If new suit is a 1RF, partner can be very strong and you can have game on power easily. The 1RF is enabling an easier time picking the right game. Partner is forced because he doesn't know what the limit of the hand is yet.

 

What you give up playing new suit 1RF is finding a major fit with weak two suiters in the majors; you have to pass 2m. The question is whether the gains your style achieves, in finding these 2M partials better than 2m, outweigh losses on the set of stronger hands where you guess more due to space consumption, and also weak hands where 2m was best after all.

 

The sequence 1d-1s-2d-2h still does not create a game force so all you are doing is craeting a 3 level sequence instead of a 2 with no advantage that I can

 

I'm gaining on different hands than you are, bidding 2H on a different set of hands. The gain is better auctions on the INV & GF set of hands, the loss is on the weak major two suiters.

 

see... Now, as part of the way I play, 1d-1s-2d- 2n shows extra values (13+) to cover this situation where I have invite values (3h bid by opener shows game interest, 4 hearts and ability to play in 4hts or 3n).

Ah, an artificial F 2nt. But now you can't play in 2nt ...

 

In the latter case passing is often reasonable" statement, u are either agreeing with me that 2h is passable (my whole point) in 1d-1s-2d-2h or you left something out that I am missing

I am saying that *responder* passing 2m is often reasonable, full auction 1d-1s-2d-all pass. Rather than trying a nf 2H, which may or may not actually find a better spot. Certainly you can score some gains here, it's just not 100% clear that these gains will be greater than losses incurred with the artificial 2nt bid (can't play 2nt, potential wrongside of 3nt). Also previously you hadn't mentioned this F 2nt treatment, which is definitely non-std. What do you with the 11-12 pt hands, where you might want to invite, but not force?