Defending a pass showing values - EBU

[TMorris]

I am going to play against a system where a pass shows a normal 1♣ opening (and various other interesting 1-level openings).

 

In an ideal world I would like to double this opening pass as takeout - I accept this is not allowed (although perhaps it should be - but that's another discussion).

 

I would like to overcall this opening pass as if the opener had made a 1♣ opening. i.e. I would like the auction

 

(P) 1♠ to show a normal 1♠ overcall. This is likely on occasion to have a point count lower than a normal opening bid. Is this legal?

 

Any comments on whether this is a sensible defence would be welcome albeit off-topic :)

[Zelandakh]

Have you considered playing a 1♣ "overcall" as a take-out double of clubs and other bids as if they had opened 1♣?

 

Edit: If you are looking for other suggested defences you might have more luck in the Non-Natural System Discussion forum.

[TMorris]

I am thinking about a 1♣ overcall as t/o - alternatively as Michaels. I'd like to play overcalls as if they have opened (1NT will certainly be 15-17) hence the question as to whether overcalling one of a suit is legal as, just looking a the auction, I might look as though I am opening on illegal values.

[Zelandakh]

You are playing under regulations that allow HUMs and worried about a natural defence to a forcing pass being classified as illegal?

[Cyberyeti]

You are playing under regulations that allow HUMs and worried about a natural defence to a forcing pass being classified as illegal?

Bizarrely yes, it says basically that the restrictions are off for conventional defenses to HUMs, but nobody's considered natural defences to them. If you restrict the simple overcalls to 8+ points they're legal and any conventional bids are legal.

[TMorris]

"If you restrict the simple overcalls to 8+ points they're legal ...."

 

Thanks that's very good to know. I hesitate to ask but would such an "overcall" be alertable?

 

"You are playing under regulations that allow HUMs and worried about a natural defence to a forcing pass being classified as illegal?"

 

I've never played against such a system before so want to make sure I stay inside the rules. In the auction I give 1 ♠ is an opening bid - at least some might consider it so - so perhaps comes under the minimum requirements for an opening bid. I have no idea so would rather find out in advance.

[TimG]

Presumably, if they pass with good hands, they have to open something with bad hands. I find it hard to believe that they can open their bad hands, but you cannot "open" your bad hands once they have passed.

 

I don't have a recommendation for actions after their 1st/2nd seat pass. But, I think when you are in 1st seat you ought to pass with some good hands in order to see more ferts from 2nd hand. Ferts are probably a long run loser for them, especially if you can "force" some on them when you have a good hand of a particular type (strong balanced, for instance). Notice that you don't have to worry about opening light in 3rd seat to protect against 1st hand's strong pass since 2nd hand will either make their own forcing pass or open the bidding, either way 1st hand will get another chance.

[RMB1]

If they can play a HUM in first position, can you play a HUM in second position where 1D/1H/1S are natural but could be less than opening values?

 

Are the regulations for this event available on-line?

[TMorris]

If they can play a HUM in first position, can you play a HUM in second position where 1D/1H/1S are natural but could be less than opening values?

 

Are the regulations for this event available on-line?

 

Re using HUMs in 2nd position I guess that is what I am asking although you have stated it much more clearly than I did.

 

The regulations state that the WBF Systems policy will apply so maybe I should be ignoring EBU requirements. We have been given a suggested defence but I want to clarify things. Anyhow if we use their defence not only will they know their own system better than us they will know the defence we are using better as well so I'd rather use something else and perhaps slightly less complex (not that the suggested defence is especially complex).

[Zelandakh]

The regulations state that the WBF Systems policy will apply

HUMs are only allowed at WBF Level 3. I think it unlikely your event is Level 3 so perhaps the first thing is to confirm with the organisers that their system is allowed. The pair opposing a HUM system are also allowed to change their opening bids in response to the HUM system - in other words you can play what you like.

[Cyberyeti]

If they can play a HUM in first position, can you play a HUM in second position where 1D/1H/1S are natural but could be less than opening values?

 

Are the regulations for this event available on-line?

Fair request, I assumed it was EBU somewhere from the thread title/comment, but you can't even use a value showing pass at level 5, so I don't see what restrictions they can put on your defences. The Gold cup regs (semi/final) say you're allowed to use a HUM, and you're allowed to defend it according to the WBF Cat 1 rules which are:

 

For Team events in Category 1, the following regulations will apply to defensive measures against HUM systems.

 

A pair opposing a HUM system pair will submit two (clearly legible) copies of their defence to the HUM system at an appropriate time and place prior to the start of that segment, to be specified in the Conditions of Contest. Such defences are deemed to be part of the opponents' system card.

In preparing the defence against a HUM system, pairs using Green, Blue or Red systems are allowed to change their systems, including opening calls. Pairs using a HUM system are not allowed to change their opening calls.

The pair using a HUM system must inform the opponents in writing (two clearly legible copies) about their counter-defence at the table prior to the start of the session. In preparing their counter-defence, the pair using a HUM system is not permitted to change any of the highly artificial aspects of its system.

 

So I suspect you can in fact do what you like if it's Gold Cup.

[TMorris]

Thanks for all the comments.

 

It looks like I am thinking of this re EBU rules when I perhaps I shouldn't be - I hadn't appreciated that some WBF rules were in force until just now. I will consider it further.

[blackshoe]

Please, folks, when you ask a question about regulations, tell us at least what regulations are in force, and preferably where we can read them for ourselves. If you don't know what regulations are in force, tell us the event and the country.

[TMorris]

My apologies. It's held in the UK so I assumed EBU regs in error.

[blackshoe]

I gather you're talking about the (EBU?) Gold Cup, but I'm still not certain of that.

[Vampyr]

You are playing under regulations that allow HUMs and worried about a natural defence to a forcing pass being classified as illegal?

 

Well, doubling a pass is somewhat likely to be an illegal defense.

[Zelandakh]

Well, doubling a pass is somewhat likely to be an illegal defense.

I dealt with that in post #2. This post (#4) was in response to the one discussing whether overcalls of their pass might be illegal openings. Anyway, the rules for the Gold Cup specifically say that all of the WBF rules apply unless they contradict another stated rule so it is clear that these 2nd/3rd seat "openings" can be played any way the OP likes and this is allowed. For reference the relevant section is:-

 

6. DEFENCE AGAINST YELLOW (HUM) SYSTEMS AND BROWN STICKER CONVENTIONS

 

For Team events in Category 1, the following regulations will apply to defensive measures against HUM systems.

 

1. A pair opposing a HUM system pair will submit two (clearly legible) copies of their defence to the HUM system at an appropriate time and place prior to the start of that segment, to be specified in the Conditions of Contest. Such defences are deemed to be part of the opponents' system card.

 

2. In preparing the defence against a HUM system, pairs using Green, Blue or Red systems are allowed to change their systems, including opening calls. Pairs using a HUM system are not allowed to change their opening calls.

 

3. The pair using a HUM system must inform the opponents in writing (two clearly legible copies) about their counter-defence at the table prior to the start of the session. In preparing their counter-defence, the pair using a HUM system is not permitted to change any of the highly artificial aspects of its system.

 

For Teams events in Category 1 and Category 2, the following regulations will apply in re­la­tion to defensive measures against Brown Sticker Conventions:

 

A pair may prepare written defences against the Brown Sticker elements of any system. Such defences will have to be given to the opponents (two clearly legible copies) at an appropriate time and place prior to the start of that segment, to be specified in the Con­di­tions of Contest. Written defences against Brown Sticker conventions are deemed to be part of the opponents' system card.

 

6.2 is the one that covers it.

[iviehoff]

But, I think when you are in 1st seat you ought to pass with some good hands in order to see more ferts from 2nd hand.

I think this could get you in trouble unless you were careful. A course of conduct of doing this would become an implicit/concealed agreement.

 

A system in which you uprated the minimum opening standards for some bids would be perfectly legal. But in general it is difficult to choose what your system is contingent upon what the other side's system is. You choose your system and then the other side chooses its defence, you don't then get to revise your system.

[Cyberyeti]

I think this could get you in trouble unless you were careful. A course of conduct of doing this would become an implicit/concealed agreement.

 

A system in which you uprated the minimum opening standards for some bids would be perfectly legal. But in general it is difficult to choose what your system is contingent upon what the other side's system is. You choose your system and then the other side chooses its defence, you don't then get to revise your system.

Actually in the gold cup, you're allowed to do this provided the system you normally play is not a HUM and you are allowed to react to opps system while they're not allowed to materially change it.

[pran]

The closest I could get to any relevant comment here in Norway is our regulation stating:

No defence against strong, conventional opening bids, Brown stickers or HUM is considered Brown sticker.

 

I read this to say that here you are not restricted in any way in your choice of such defence agreements.

[gnasher]

I think this could get you in trouble unless you were careful. A course of conduct of doing this would become an implicit/concealed agreement.

It woudl become an agreement, certainly. There's no reason to assume it would become a concealed agreement.

[TimG]

I think this could get you in trouble unless you were careful. A course of conduct of doing this would become an implicit/concealed agreement.

I would be so careful as to disclose the agreement, not that I think that requires much care, just the normal way to play bridge.

[iviehoff]

It woudl become an agreement, certainly. There's no reason to assume it would become a concealed agreement.

"Concealed agreement" would only come up if you were "psyching" the bid and partner was observed to be fielding it.

 

If on the other hand, you disclosed an agreement that you would sometimes choose to pass strongish flat hands (say 14-17 ish), although your convention card otherwise suggested you opened all 13+ hands, I suspect you would now be playing a HUM. Since it occurs before the opponents have made a call, it could not be justified on the grounds of being a defence to a HUM.

[Zelandakh]

Read 6.2 again ivie - the rules do not say anything about altering one's opening bids only after the opponents have called. They say "In preparing the defence against a HUM system, pairs using Green, Blue or Red systems are allowed to change their systems, including opening calls. Pairs using a HUM system are not allowed to change their opening calls." That certainly does not preclude passing on some hands that would have been opened playing against a non-HUM system.

[TimG]

Read 6.2 again ivie - the rules do not say anything about altering one's opening bids only after the opponents have called. They say "In preparing the defence against a HUM system, pairs using Green, Blue or Red systems are allowed to change their systems, including opening calls. Pairs using a HUM system are not allowed to change their opening calls." That certainly does not preclude passing on some hands that would have been opened playing against a non-HUM system.

 

That "including opening calls" part makes the opening calls part of the defense and seems to be necessary in order to avoid the situation where a FP pair announces their system, the opponents announce "in that case we also play a FP", and then the original FP pair announce "in that case we don't play a FP", etc.