Is Pass an LA?

[lamford]

[hv=pc=n&s=sk8532h8dak4ct932&w=sthqjt542djckqj64&n=saqj9764h6dq652c5&e=shak973dt9873ca87&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=1h4s5h5sppd(slow)r6hppdppp]399|300[/hv]

Table result 6HX=

 

This was the last board of a 32 board Crockfords Knockout match. All the players are reasonable County standard or above - about US Life Master perhaps. East went to the bidding box, withdrew her hand, thought again and then doubled. North-South were trailing by 20 going into the last set, so South tried a redouble, but West pulled to 6H. North-South thought that Pass was an LA for West, and the telephone EBU director initially shared that view, but stated he would consult. He rang two EBU referees and gave their ruling that Pass was not an LA so the table result stood.

 

Of course, the ruling affected the result of the match (it always does) but our team (NS on this board) decided not to appeal (and indeed the appeal time has now expired being 12 hours after the telephone ruling), but I would be interested in the viewpoint of readers, as another leading TD thought it was very close.

[TimG]

I don't think pass is a LA after the redouble.

[Cyberyeti]

Not sure about the question you ask, I think pass probably is a LA, but I think there's every chance that E would reassess after the redouble and do what he wanted to do first time.

[mich-b]

Since West in fact passed 5♠ (why did he?) , passing the same contract after partner doubles it, has to be considered a LA (and South's Rdbl doesnt change that).

But when ruling on this , it has to be remembered that if West passed 5♠XX , East can still bid (and he doesn't have any UI), so this should somehow be considered.

[campboy]

If I was going to bid 6♥ with the West hand I would have done it the round before, not now. Was West asked why he didn't?

[lamford]

If I was going to bid 6♥ with the West hand I would have done it the round before, not now. Was West asked why he didn't?

West was given the phone to speak to the telephone TD and she stated, as best I recall, that she did not want to pass 5Sxx as her team led in the match and she felt they had had a good last set. There was no discussion relating to the previous round of the auction.

[lamford]

Not sure about the question you ask, I think pass probably is a LA, but I think there's every chance that E would reassess after the redouble and do what he wanted to do first time.

She did not go to the back of the box first time, so I think she went for a pass or double card, reconsidered, and then selected the double card.

[Codo]

passing is an LA for West, but passing is no LA for East. :)

But who knows, the double was no LA either...

[billw55]

passing is an LA for West, but passing is no LA for East. :)

But who knows, the double was no LA either...

Agree that pass is a LA.

 

But what is wrong with doubling at the five level, holding two aces, after partner opened?

[blackshoe]

Agree that pass is a LA.

 

But what is wrong with doubling at the five level, holding two aces, after partner opened?

Nothing is wrong with doubling, per se. The problem is that East's mannerism with the bidding box indicated the possibility of some doubt about whether to double. This demonstrably could suggest that West bid on. Is pass an LA? I suspect it may be, had South passed, but when South redoubles, I think not.

[lamford]

Agree that pass is a LA.

 

But what is wrong with doubling at the five level, holding two aces, after partner opened?

More relevantly, what are the chances that an East who doubled 5S will change her mind after the contract is redoubled, if her partner passes?

[aguahombre]

I don't think pass is a LA after the redouble.

Well, I don't believe pass is logical after the redouble, either. But what you and I believe is a bad choice (Pass) might still fall within the definition of L.A. in this situation.

 

Was going to rant a bit about slow actions in high-level competitive situations ---they should be expected and given a lot more slack than they are. But that action with the bid box blew it; there is specific UI narrowing what East was thinking about to two actions. That was bad, and the only thing I am sure of is that I am glad I wasn't the TD.

[billw55]

Nothing is wrong with doubling, per se. The problem is that East's mannerism with the bidding box indicated the possibility of some doubt about whether to double. This demonstrably could suggest that West bid on. Is pass an LA? I suspect it may be, had South passed, but when South redoubles, I think not.

I realize the problem. My comment was directed at Codo's (hence the quote), which I interpreted to mean that, in his opinion, east's double was very bad.

 

As west, I would probably choose to pull to 6♥. The redouble, coupled with my unusual distribution and lack of defense for an opening bid, would likely convince me. But I would definitely give pass serious thought and consider it a close decision.

[RMB1]

If I was going to bid 6♥ with the West hand I would have done it the round before, not now. Was West asked why he didn't?

 

West was asked why they bid 6♥:

 

"We were 20IMPs up [at the start of the stanza] and these boards were going OK. 5S redoubled [making] could win them the match. I had no tricks. I would have passed the double [without the redouble]."

[gnasher]

I don't think pass is a logical alternative, especially given the state of the match.

 

When we passed 5♠, we were risking losing 650 instead of saving for 300 or 500. Passing 5♠xx risks losing -1200, and the likely penalty in 6♥ is reduced by the probability that partner has an ace or two for his double. Hence the odds required for a pass are greatly increased.

[lalldonn]

Pass is a million % an LA. In fact I'm sure I would pass given the conditions that the opponents were likely to be swinging, i.e. that the redouble was just taking a shot (well that's not quite right since I wouldn't be in this position, but if I thought this was a 1♥ opener and I had been willing to defend 5♠ then I would certainly not change my mind now). Obviously he was too, since look what would have happened to the redoubler if his partner's minors were reversed.

 

I mean, partner bids 5♥ on what could be anything. You probably should bid 6♥ the round before but you didn't so obviously you were willing to defend. Then partner, who knows you are up in the match and shouldn't risk a big loss, doubles to tell you he thinks they are down. Then RHO, who knows he is down in the match and will be willing to take big chances, redoubles. What about those last two events makes you think they are making? The problem on the actual hand, if you think it was a 1♥ opener (and you have to determine LAs within that context) was your pass over 5♥ and your partner's ridiculous double of 5♠.

 

Also at the table you are way better off passing since on a hand like this the doubler might decide to run, but you steal that chance from him if you force the director to rule against you for pulling the double instead.

[billw55]

Pass is a million % an LA. In fact I'm sure I would pass given the conditions that the opponents were likely to be swinging, i.e. that the redouble was just taking a shot (well that's not quite right since I wouldn't be in this position, but if I thought this was a 1♥ opener and I had been willing to defend 5♠ then I would certainly not change my mind now). Obviously he was too, since look what would have happened to the redoubler if his partner's minors were reversed.

 

I mean, partner bids 5♥ on what could be anything. You probably should bid 6♥ the round before but you didn't so obviously you were willing to defend. Then partner, who knows you are up in the match and shouldn't risk a big loss, doubles to tell you he thinks they are down. Then RHO, who knows he is down in the match and will be willing to take big chances, redoubles. What about those last two events makes you think they are making? The problem on the actual hand, if you think it was a 1♥ opener (and you have to determine LAs within that context) was your pass over 5♥ and your partner's ridiculous double of 5♠.

 

Also at the table you are way better off passing since on a hand like this the doubler might decide to run, but you steal that chance from him if you force the director to rule against you for pulling the double instead.

Interesting. I still don't see why the double is so bad opposite a 1♥ opening. From east's point of view, doesn't it look like our hand? And that ops are saving.

 

Also, they found at least one director who was not so forced :ph34r:

[lamford]

Also, they found at least one director who was not so forced :ph34r:

The director initially stated that he thought Pass was an LA, but that he would consult with two EBU referees and then decide. He rang back around 20 minutes later with the ruling that Pass was not an LA, so he was presumably persuaded by their arguments, although he can speak for himself as he posted on this thread.

[RMB1]

The director initially stated that he thought Pass was an LA, ...

 

I did not intend to say that. I had not made up my mind at the time. Sorry for any confusion.

 

All I meant to say (before consulting) that the only issue was whether pass was a LA. I was trying to address a tangential issue (whether extra boards could become necessary) and saying that there were only really two possible rulings - result stands or the result of 5SXX (which both sides had told me was 11 tricks).

.

(But I don't want this to turn into a debate like the current "pleb"-gate in british politics.)

[lamford]

I had not made up my mind at the time. Sorry for any confusion.

You made that clear, and indicated that you would consult and come to a final decision. Sorry if I did not make that clear myself! And I don't think anyone swore at each other ...

[Codo]

Interesting. I still don't see why the double is so bad opposite a 1♥ opening. From east's point of view, doesn't it look like our hand? And that ops are saving.

 

Also, they found at least one director who was not so forced :ph34r:

 

This is true if you count HCPS, but not if you count tricks.

You have at least 10 Hearts between you and partner and the opps are bidding 5 ♠ vul against not. How many Heart tricks will you have? Now count your tricks in diamonds and spades. So you have one defensive trick. Partner passed 5 ♠, he did not show 3 defensive tricks. So the best you can do is to switch from + 100 to +300- and the worst case is much worse, so why do you bid?

 

But obviously you are in VERY good compagnion. Most experts here on BBF seems to play a double as: I have a real 5 ♥ bid, not just a sacrifice. Please do something intelligent. But please do just pass if you have two defensive tricks and still no play for 6 ♥, anything else would be silly.

[jallerton]

All I meant to say (before consulting) that the only issue was whether pass was a LA. I was trying to address a tangential issue (whether extra boards could become necessary) and saying that there were only really two possible rulings - result stands or the result of 5SXX (which both sides had told me was 11 tricks).

 

Is this true? I think the following poster has a good point:

 

But when ruling on this , it has to be remembered that if West passed 5♠XX , East can still bid (and he doesn't have any UI), so this should somehow be considered.

 

East apparently did not feel comfortable about doubling, so there must be a fair chance that East would run if 5♠xx is passed back to her. So if pass by West is a logical alternative, why isn't it possible to award a weighted ruling?

[RMB1]

Is this true? I think the following poster has a good point:

 

East apparently did not feel comfortable about doubling, so there must be a fair chance that East would run if 5♠xx is passed back to her. So if pass by West is a logical alternative, why isn't it possible to award a weighted ruling?

 

I agree, other rulings were possible.

 

So what I learn is not to make rash statements about what rulings are possible.

[bluejak]

Of course, the ruling affected the result of the match (it always does) but our team (NS on this board) decided not to appeal (and indeed the appeal time has now expired being 12 hours after the telephone ruling), but I would be interested in the viewpoint of readers, as another leading TD thought it was very close.

I was consulted when returning by car from losing a k/o match in Carlisle - perhaps I am the "leading TD" - and after ending the telephone call, I considered what I would bid and asked my three team-mates.

 

All four of us would have bid 6♣ directly over 5♠ and considered nothing else.

 

All four of us would have bid 6♣ over the redouble and considered nothing else.

 

I do not believe pass is an LA and no longer consider it close.

[c_corgi]

All four of us would have bid 6♣ directly over 5♠ and considered nothing else.

 

All four of us would have bid 6♣ over the redouble and considered nothing else.

 

I do not believe pass is an LA and no longer consider it close.

 

All your poll suggests is that people for whom pulling the redouble was an the only LA would not be in a position to do so, having already bid over 5S. The only plausible reason I can think of for not bidding directly over 5S would be to avoid pushing N/S into slam, but West did not mention this. West's statement sounds unconvincing: E/W actions on the board do not look as though they were low variance efforts designed to protect a lead, so why should that consideration suddenly be so paramount as to rule out LAs now that there is UI?

Edited September 25, 2012 by c_corgi