Defending 6H

[gnasher]

[hv=pc=n&n=sak62hj653djt94c5&e=s9743hq7d2cat9643&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=1hp4cp4dp4sp5dp5sp6hppp]266|200[/hv]

 

You're East, sitting over dummy.

 

4♣ was a splinter, showing less than an opening hand. The rest were cue-bids. (If you're wondering about the 5♠ bid, North is a client.)

 

Partner leads ♥9, which runs to declarer's 10. Declarer plays ♠J to the queen and ace, then leads ♣5. What do you do and why, or is it just a guess?

 

Edit: Sorry, the contract is 6♥, not 6♦ as it says in the subject line.

Edited September 24, 2012 by gnasher

[MrAce]

Why are we defending 6 ♦ ? :P

 

Anyway, assuming they play 6♥ i would auto play small by instinct. Opener liked the splinter, imo he is unlikely to hold the K, i may be wrong though. Only problem we can create for declarer maybe in clubs, i think pd made a good lead, lets cooperate with him.

[MrAce]

I think we have to assume declarer has only 5 hearts in order for us to have a chance after 4 and 5 ♦ cues. We also have to assume he doesnt have more than 2 spade tricks

 

Jx

AKxxx

AK

KJxx/QJxx/Qxxx

 

J

AKxxx

AKx

KJxx/QJxx/Qxxx

 

Hoping up the ♣A can be fatal. Of course ducking the first ♣ is fatal if pd has a sure ♦ trick and declarer was joking with 5♦ cue...i dunno.

 

Only thing i know is Andy probably ducked this and they made and he is seeking for sympathy which he got from me :P

[gnasher]

Hoping up the ♣A can be fatal. Of course ducking the first ♣ is fatal if pd has a sure ♦ trick and declarer was joking with 5♦ cue...i dunno.

Ducking is fatal if declarer has J AK10xx AKxx Kxx.

 

Only thing i know is Andy probably ducked this

I was West.

[MrAce]

Ducking is fatal if declarer has J AK10xx AKxx Kxx.

 

 

Yes, of course but i am not gonna play for this specific club holding.(Admittedly i didnt even see that and wouldnt see it at the table in a fast pace play, untill you told me ) Imo there are much more club combinations where ducking comes on top compared to hoping up the ace.

 

I mean, i am a kind of player who doesnt really care much about winning post mortem arguments, i try to win the match. I didnt sit down and thought about how many combinations declarer may have where ducking or playing ace is better. As i said earlier i would play small by instinct, knowing from my own personal experience, fwiw, that hoping up the ace in that type of situations, especially when i have Ace 6th costs in long run.

[gnasher]

wouldnt see it at the table in a fast pace play

As a general principle, I don't think you should allow the play to be fast when you're defending a slam.

 

Anyway, you don't get fast-paced play with me at the table. On this occasion you would have had at least a minute to decide what you were going to do when the club was played.

[MrAce]

As a general principle, I don't think you should allow the play to be fast when you're defending a slam.

 

Anyway, you don't get fast-paced play with me at the table. On this occasion you would have had at least a minute to decide what you were going to do when the club was played.

 

Oh i wouldnt duck just for the sake of playing fast, i would take my time on first ♥ lead, and it doesnt need a rocket scientist to figure it is club suit and i have only 2 options when played, duck or jump my ace that will matter if there is anything to matter. I just admitted that i wouldnt be able to see the hand you gave .

 

I dont think seeing it would have changed my mind though. I would still play small all day long with this auction. Obviously i let them make their slam by ducking on this one, but i got close to what declarer holds. Even if you change declarers small diamond to a club and make him hold Kxxx ♣ ducking is the winner if declarer decides to play for Axx clubs, where ace would be a sure loser.

[gnasher]

Obviously i let them make their slam by ducking on this one, but i got close to what declarer holds.

I didn't say that was his hand - that was just an example of a layout where it's right to take the ace. In fact, I think that all such layouts have the same characteristics:

J AKxxx AKxx Kxx

J AKxxx AKxxx Kx

Jx AKxxx AKxx Kx

J AKxxxx AKxx Kx

[MrAce]

I didn't say that was his hand - that was just an example of a layout where it's right to take the ace. In fact, I think that all such layouts have the same characteristics:

J AKxxx AKxx Kxx

J AKxxx AKxxx Kx

Jx AKxxx AKxx Kx

J AKxxxx AKxx Kx

 

I understand that but all of those hands are basically the same hand and you keep assuming short clubs in declarers hand. In fact these hands are less likely than your first one.

 

J AKxxx AKxxx Kx for example, declarer wouldnt play this way, would you ? He would have played on diamonds after clearing trumps, which he has to anyway.

 

J AKxxxx AKxx Kx pd wpuldnt lead his stiff trump, after all you might have held Qxx. But you may convince me if 5♦ meant something else than just a cue of course.

 

I maybe wrong but declarer not clearing trumps but playing clubs now makes me think he has more than 3 clubs. It would be funny of him to go down when he has one of those hands you listed and West was ruffing diamond, no ?

[PhilKing]

I didn't say that was his hand - that was just an example of a layout where it's right to take the ace. In fact, I think that all such layouts have the same characteristics:

J AKxxx AKxx Kxx

J AKxxx AKxxx Kx

Jx AKxxx AKxx Kx

J AKxxxx AKxx Kx

 

Most of these hands would just punt slam after partner bids 4♠.

 

Gunnar bid 5♦ because he needed extra playing strength opposite so that he could handle the club losers.

[Finch]

My partner had the same problem on a slightly different auction. His analysis of layouts where ducking gains or costs was hence slightly different but I'm not going to give them because I think it tells you too much about declarer's hand if I give another auction.

 

Has anyone yet suggested a layout where ducking gains, other than saying "it's always right to duck in this sort of position"?

 

Edit: yes I see some suggestions, generally when declarer has Qxxx clubs

Edited September 24, 2012 by FrancesHinden

[inquiry]

I edited the title to make it 6H not 6D. A note, some users, advanced users at least, now have the ability to edit their own titles. Since I have long had the ability to edit titiles (anyones), I am not sure where the option on editing titles should appear, but gnasher, you should have been able to edit your own title....

[gnasher]

I understand that but all of those hands are basically the same hand and you keep assuming short clubs in declarers hand. In fact these hands are less likely than your first one.

I'm not assuming anything. That was, as I said, simply a list of the layouts where it's right to take the ace. I wasn't arguing that we should take the ace, and I wasn't arguing that we should duck. And when I said "all such layouts have the same characteristics" that was another way of saying "all of those hands are basically the same hand".

 

J AKxxx AKxxx Kx for example, declarer wouldnt play this way, would you ? He would have played on diamonds after clearing trumps, which he has to anyway.

If I had that hand I would definitely play as declarer did. The chance of RHO ducking with ♣A [edit: when we have a diamond loser] is much higher than the risk of a 0=4 break.

 

But you may convince me if 5♦ meant something else than just a cue of course.

5♦ was just a cue-bid.

Edited September 24, 2012 by gnasher

[gnasher]

A note, some users, advanced users at least, now have the ability to edit their own titles. Since I have long had the ability to edit titiles (anyones), I am not sure where the option on editing titles should appear, but gnasher, you should have been able to edit your own title....

Yes, you're right - thanks for pointing that out, and for editing the title.

[PhilKing]

I maybe wrong but declarer not clearing trumps but playing clubs now makes me think he has more than 3 clubs. It would be funny of him to go down when he has one of those hands you listed and West was ruffing diamond, no ?

 

Not as funny as West leading a trump with a diamond void.

[MrAce]

Not as funny as West leading a trump with a diamond void.

 

 

If I had that hand I would definitely play as declarer did. The chance of RHO ducking with ♣A [edit: when we have a diamond loser] is much higher than the risk of a 0=4 break.

 

Of course, but would you do it w/o clearing trumps ?

 

What would it cost him to clear trumps even if he is not going to play on diamonds but a club ? A good declarer knows trumps are 2-2 from the lead. Where is the fire ? I mean i could bet good size of money that this guy has 4 or 5 clubs.

 

Maybe i am thinking this too simple, i dunno...

[gnasher]

Of course, but would you do it w/o clearing trumps ?

 

What would it cost him to clear trumps even if he is not going to play on diamonds but a club ? A good declarer knows trumps are 2-2 from the lead. Where is the fire ? I mean i could bet good size of money that this guy has 4 or 5 clubs.

 

Maybe i am thinking this too simple, i dunno...

If you have J AKxxx AKxxx Kx, you have two chances to make the contract: diamonds coming in, or East ducking with ♣A. If you want to encourage East to duck with ♣A, you should play as though you have J AKxxx AKx QJxx.

[JLOGIC]

I would duck

[PhilKing]

The straw in the wind that suggests ducking the club was declarer's 5♦ bid.

 

He was looking for North to have a max in terms of playing strength. Obviously North should have signed of lacking a fifth trump, better diamonds, or a club void which was possible in their methods!

[gnasher]

The straw in the wind that suggests ducking the club was declarer's 5♦ bid.

 

He was looking for North to have a max in terms of playing strength.

Isn't that what 5♥ would mean? On general principles, if you just want partner to bid slam with a max, you make a try and then sign off, whereas cue-bidding implies interest in specific cards.

[PhilKing]

Isn't that what 5♥ would mean? On general principles, if you just want partner to bid slam with a max, you make a try and then sign off, whereas cue-bidding implies interest in specific cards.

 

That's not how I do it, and it's certainly not how Gunnar does. 5♦ tells North the ♦Q or better still QJxxx is huge. 5♥ just says bid on if max, but for me it denies AKx of diamonds. In an ideal world, 5♣ would show interest in spade cards.

[MrAce]

If you have J AKxxx AKxxx Kx, you have two chances to make the contract: diamonds coming in, or East ducking with ♣A. If you want to encourage East to duck with ♣A, you should play as though you have J AKxxx AKx QJxx.

 

Here is what you say and what i say, and i dont know why we cant agree, since i never said hoping up the ace is a crime. You asked a question and i answered it, you also asked the reason, i answered that too.

 

Andy - Declarer would/should play the way he did when he wants us to duck the club Ace - True

 

Timo - Sometimes, actually much more often than psycological strategy (or w/e you call it) purposes, declarers dont clear the trumps because they need to use them for ruffing purposes.

 

If this dude did not clear trumps for the reasons you are anticipating, he got me bro. If you were my pd and hoped up the ace and let them make it, i wouldnt say a word and i would totally understand you when u explain me why u did it, if you ducked the ace and let them make it i would feel the same. I dunno how we are supposed to solve from the auction which one is better, but i have a feeling that you are about to tell me soon that my analysis of the auction was way off. Because you sound like you are trying to give me a hint about how to figure minor holdings of declarer but to be honest, i admit, i cant see it.

 

 

Has anyone yet suggested a layout where ducking gains, other than saying "it's always right to duck in this sort of position"?

 

Edit: yes I see some suggestions, generally when declarer has Qxxx clubs

 

KJxx

QJxx

Qxxx

 

and some 5 card clubs too

[JLOGIC]

Andy - Declarer would/should play the way he did when he wants us to duck the club Ace - True

 

Timo - Sometimes, actually much more often than psycological strategy (or w/e you call it) purposes, declarers dont clear the trumps because they need to use them for ruffing purposes.

 

If this dude did not clear trumps for the reasons you are anticipating, he got me bro.

 

Man plus freaking 1 million. This is just spot on. On a good day we remember to play the correct order of cards in order to maximize our deceptive chances, but on every single day we remember not to pull trumps when we have 4 clubs. Nobody is making strong subtle deceptive plays all of the time imo, but they are making the normal technical plays (not pulling too many trumps).

[JLOGIC]

BTW clee was over at my house when we read this hand, and I offered to lay 5:1 that declarer has stiff J of spades so curious to see if I lose that one lol. I think the real odds are like 20:1. Given declarer being 1-5 in the majors, 3-4 is really not an unlikely scenario.

[JLOGIC]

Most of these hands would just punt slam after partner bids 4♠.

 

Gunnar bid 5♦ because he needed extra playing strength opposite so that he could handle the club losers.

 

Yes, I do not know what to make of the bidding, but generally I think the 5D bidder is trying to stop in 5 if partner signs off and wouldn't have the nutterball hand types, and is more likely to have 1534 needing extra strength as you say.