First-bid dilemma

[bd71]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakqj9hj8daj5cj87&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=p1d]133|200[/hv]

 

Matchpoints. Mainstream 2/1.

[CSGibson]

I would bid 1♠. I have sympathy for 1N, though - it certainly gets the relatively balanced nature of the hand, and the relative strength out there. I think the other possible sequence, double and then bid spades, is flawed because I have so many losers; partner would expect a better playing hand.

[wyman]

1S. I fill in 6-17(18) in my "Simple Overcalls" box.

[billw55]

1♠, Jx Jxx doesn't impress me much.

[Thiros]

1♠, Jx Jxx doesn't impress me much.

 

For spades, probably true. Notrump could be a different story:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sakqj9hj8daj5cj87&n=sxxhqtxxdqtxcqxxx]133|200[/hv]

 

Double is the best way to get to either 3NT or 4♠ when we have a game.

[JLOGIC]

I have no sympathy for 1N, overcalling 1N with a 5 card major is a lot different than opening 1N with one.

[ggwhiz]

I do have sympthy for 1nt at mp's. If they compete and I bid 2♠ over that pard will expect something like this and act accordingly.

 

If I bid 1♠ (extremely wide ranging) and get a negative double, pass from pard and something from rho, now what? I can be swayed to the 1♠ overcall if that can be answered.

[lalldonn]

I have no sympathy for 1N, overcalling 1N with a 5 card major is a lot different than opening 1N with one.

Totally agree and I even used to try overcalling 1NT with a 5 card major quite often, I can definitively say it worked out very badly for me until finally I stopped.

[quiddity]

I have no sympathy for 1N, overcalling 1N with a 5 card major is a lot different than opening 1N with one.

 

 

Totally agree and I even used to try overcalling 1NT with a 5 card major quite often, I can definitively say it worked out very badly for me until finally I stopped.

 

Why is this the case? With the wide range of the overcall, it seems like the benefit of narrowing that range would be increased. Is it just that the chance of game is so much lower when they open?

[jmcw]

Why is this the case? With the wide range of the overcall, it seems like the benefit of narrowing that range would be increased. Is it just that the chance of game is so much lower when they open?

 

Good question! I'm interested too.

 

My guess is that with less points in your partner's hand it's likely to be a part score battle, 1♠ gets you better placed from the get go.

Your safer in 1 or 2 ♠ when your partner is bust, its a lot easier to get nailed when they open the bidding.

[SteveMoe]

I prefer double to 1♠ but only slightly.

I dislike 1N strongly - too hard to find a 5-3 fit in ♠.

The reason I like double first is I prefer the overcall limit of 16 HCP and prefer an overcall than double to promise a 6-card trumps suit and imply 6331 shape.

Playing a higher overcall range 1♠ is appealing.

[rmnka447]

1 ♠ -- primarily Because I don't want to suppress a major and will be able to show the stopper if partner takes a call. I really don't like bidding NT with two outside suits no better than Jxx either.

[fromageGB]

I have no sympathy with those that open 1NT with a 5 card major :)

[P_Marlowe]

1S.

 

The only reason to start with X - you happen to play a very limited range for overcall,

like in the old days, when a simple overcall was limited to 15HCP.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

Good question! I'm interested too.

 

My guess is that with less points in your partner's hand it's likely to be a part score battle, 1♠ gets you better placed from the get go.

Your safer in 1 or 2 ♠ when your partner is bust, its a lot easier to get nailed when they open the bidding.

Another reason - partner is less likely to start a rescue seq. using Stayman.

Most of the time, you will be long in their suit, so he will only use Stayman with Game interest.

And if you show the spades, partner wont expect a 5 carder.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Phil]

1S. I fill in 6-17(18) in my "Simple Overcalls" box.

 

I'm "4+".

 

I suppose this hand is in range.

[lalldonn]

Why is this the case? With the wide range of the overcall, it seems like the benefit of narrowing that range would be increased. Is it just that the chance of game is so much lower when they open?

I'm not sure why. I think the main benefit of opening 1NT with a 5 card major is preemption and description, and neither matters so much after the opponents have opened. Or maybe since partner usually was too weak to bid we would miss a major suit fit, plus they are making better leads than when I opened 1NT so it cost more to miss the fit on top of it. Overcalling doesn't really lose much anyway, I can rebid the appropriate amount of notrump if partner acts.

[mikeh]

I think the downsides of a 1N call with this sort of hand can include:

 

1. Paradoxically, we make it easier for partner to help us in a competitive partscore hand by starting with the (usually weaker) choice of 1♠ rather than 1N. Consider: LHO bids 2 suit over 1N. Partner, with a useful 5 or 6 count with 3 or 4 spades, has to pass.....exactly as he would have done with a useless hand. We can hardly suppress our spades a second time, so we are forced to bid 2♠ and hope for a fit. Had we bid 1♠, partner would raise in competition.

 

2. Sometimes LHO has an easier bid over 1N than over 1♠. Consider LHO holding some 6322 with long clubs and a weak hand. He can bid 2♣, creating a problem....see above....whereas over 1♠ he must pass, and maybe partner raises, and rho can't bid. Sure, sometimes LHO can reopen, but we have created problems and guesses for them, whereas 1N does the same thing for us

 

3. We may need the long trump to afford us control of one of the side suits

 

 

4. Bidding 1N may get us to an inferior heart partial, when partner transfers us into hearts (or bids them directly if transfers aren't available.

 

 

Why is this different than opening 1N with a major, which I do frequently?

 

I think part of it is strength expectation. When we are the first to bid, we can expect partner to hold about 8 hcp on average, and if we are in second, probably a touch more, since we eliminate the hands where RHO holds 12+ (maybe 11 against some opps).

 

This means that we rate to hold most of the hcp most of the time.....if we hold 16, we have 21 or more far more than 50% of the time, and so we rate to be able to stop most suits.

 

When RHO opens, and we hold about 16, we can probably usefully place RHO with 13-14 on average, and now our expectation of a substantial plurality of the strength is almost gone, and we'd have an expectation of an average of 4 or 5 hcp for partner. This means that we are likely to benefit from trump control of a side suit in order to limit the opps' ability to cash winners.

 

In addition, it is usually far more difficult for the opps to compete, causing us to guess whether to show the major, after we open 1N than it is after RHO opened.

 

LHO can raise to 2m on hands on which neither opp would squeak after a 1N opening. He can also (for most opps) show a weak one-suiter or (for some opps) a weak 2 suiter, both on hands that wouldn't dream of bidding over a 1N opening bid.

 

I don't claim to have spent a lot of time on this, and have zero experience to back it up....I don't think I have ever overcalled 1N holding a 5 card major, altho I admit that I'd consider it with a major of, say, 9xxxx and an otherwise suitable hand.....but I don't count those, since 9xxxx is really only barely a 4 card suit :P

[gwnn]

welcome back mikeh!

[kayin801]

I'm sorry I didn't see that I had a balanced 17 count behind my AKQJx of spades. I actually didn't even think of bidding 1NT on this until after I saw people mention it cause I didn't look at the poll.

 

I would open this a balanced NT if my range included the value of this hand. I don't think this is contradictory at all. FWIW I wonder if it's different when we have hearts instead of spades since it's easier for them to get in after a 1♥ overcall.

[mikestar13]

I wouldn't open this 1NT playing a system requiring 1NT on all 5-3-3-2's (which I do, most of the time), preferring to treat this excellent spade suit as a six cards. And if I won't open it 1NT, I sure won't overcall 1NT, where 1NT has more downside and less upside.

[the hog]

I would certainly open this hand 1NT. In this case I will overcall1S.

[Zelandakh]

In addition to the reasons already given I think a 1NT overcall on this kind of hand is a bad idea because the message sent is quite different from a 1NT opening. The overcall is generally less specific about shape and suggests to partner that there is a risk of a misfit. Both of these things make partner a little more conservative when competing, exactly on a hand type where we want to be quite bullish. I think the 1♠ overcall is clearly better here; as dealer the choice is a little more interesting and depends much more on system.

[gszes]

i am normally a firm believer in overcalling good 5 card suits when

reasonably able. This hand is a rare exception to me because p

does not need that much for us to make 3n and it will be easier to

get p to invite with nt than over a 1s overcall. This will be especially

true if p does not have spade support and an otherwise boring hand

with no dia stop (98xx).