Rebids in 2/1 with 4S and 6H

[jeffford76]

Assume that you are playing the version of 2/1 where rebidding the major is the neutral bid, not 2NT. After 1H - 2C, with a hand with 4 spades and 6 hearts, I would expect a 2H rebid. (If this isn't standard, please tell me.)

 

My partner is trying to convince me that it's better to play the other way, and to bid 2S with this and show the sixth heart later. Thinking about future auctions, it seemed mostly like a wash to me, so I was wondering what advantages there are to playing it one way or the other that I might not be seeing.

 

Any thoughts?

[aguahombre]

I can think of continuation scenarios where, if we rebid a neutral 2♥ with 4-6 in the majors, it might not be clear later whether we have 4 spades or 6 hearts, let alone both. That is why I would choose 2S.

[lalldonn]

It's important to rebid 2♠ if you rebid 2♣ on a lot of balanced or short-club hands, since if partner has four spades and a balanced hand he will rebid 2NT since 2♠ would sound like it promises real clubs. Opener could bid 3♠ over that and you have a chance to sort it out, but you lose serious/nonserious 3NT, and being able to agree both suits is complicated (4♣ strong with hearts 4♦ strong with spades and then there is no room to cuebid?)

[Codo]

I would bid 2 ♥ with a weak opening and raise my partners spades later to show a 45xy hand with 11-14 HCPS (or the equivalent). If he does not show spades, I would simply show my 6. Heart later.

I would bid 2 ♠ with stronger hands showing a hand with around 15+ HCPS and 45xy. I guess this makes more sense then thinking about the 64 now.

 

As ususal, our space is limited, so we cannot give all information at the right level. And as it is impossible to show 46xy right now, I think the information about the strength is of much more value.

[kenrexford]

It's important to rebid 2♠ if you rebid 2♣ on a lot of balanced or short-club hands, since if partner has four spades and a balanced hand he will rebid 2NT since 2♠ would sound like it promises real clubs. Opener could bid 3♠ over that and you have a chance to sort it out, but you lose serious/nonserious 3NT, and being able to agree both suits is complicated (4♣ strong with hearts 4♦ strong with spades and then there is no room to cuebid?)

 

Agree wholeheartedly.

[lalldonn]

Agree wholeheartedly.

I'll assume you disagree with the typo where I said "rebid 2♣" instead of "respond 2♣".

[aguahombre]

Nah, you got em trained to agree with everything :rolleyes:

[kenrexford]

I'll assume you disagree with the typo where I said "rebid 2♣" instead of "respond 2♣".

I was assuming that Responder's LHO passed out of turn, accepted by Responder to rebid 2C, but I suppose the principle applies in either sequence.

[Quantumcat]

A related question, what is the right rebid after 1♠ 2♦ (GF) with:

 

♠KQT952 ♥AJ54 ♦- ♣T87?

 

I thought I might be denying four hearts with a 2♠ bid, so I bid 2♥, then the auction continued 3♦ 3♠ 3NT. Two off when partner only had a flimsy club stopper, and jack doubleton spade, with four spades cold (losing 3 aces). Partner says I may have just been bidding 3♠ because I don't have a club stopper and there is no room to ask. That makes sense.

 

But, if partner has a really good diamond suit and a bad four card heart suit, might he not bid 3♦ instead of 3♥ after 1♠ 2♦ 2♠? Then if I bid 3♥, might I not just have some heart values and no club values to bid 3NT with? For example, with ♠KQJ65 ♥AQJ ♦75 ♣876, the auction might go 1♠ 2♦ 2♠ 3♦ 3♥ ? when partner has: ♠- ♥T763 ♦AQJT653 ♣KJ? If the right rebid for me with that hand is 2NT instead of 2♠, what if you take one or two of the small diamonds and make them small clubs?

[aguahombre]

A related question, what is the right rebid after 1♠ 2♦ (GF) with:

 

♠KQT952 ♥AJ54 ♦- ♣T87?

 

I thought I might be denying four hearts with a 2♠ bid, so I bid 2♥, then the auction continued 3♦ 3♠ 3NT. Two off when partner only had a flimsy club stopper, and jack doubleton spade, with four spades cold (losing 3 aces). Partner says I may have just been bidding 3♠ because I don't have a club stopper and there is no room to ask. That makes sense.

It does make sense and is why we treat the two differently. We believe we are consistent in our concerns (about the 4-6 case originally being discussed) if we rebid the six-bagger first when we are 6-4 instead of 4-6.

 

So, with 4-6 we rebid 2S, then rebid hearts, if possible. But with 6-4, we rebid spades and then hearts if possible.

 

We don't have as many hands as others where we need to use the default with only five in the major. So, that helps too.

[mike777]

fwiw I think I would rebid2h on the vast majority of hands. Opener seldom seldom has extras.

 

great pt that pard, responder will not rebid 2s with only 4c b ut choose to live with that issue.

 

edit.....I assumed 2h promises 6h, dont know the other style.

[32519]

Some related threads -

Bypassing both majors in a 2/1 GF Auction

Are Reverse Bids “On” or “Off” in a 2/1 Auction?

[the hog]

I would rebid 2H with 11-14 and rebid 2S with 15+. 2S is a reverse for me and I do not reverse on minimum values even playing 2/1.

Of course I would not have the problem described by some posters where a 4 x x 4 shape is forced to bid 2S instead of 2NT after responding 2C, as this hand shape is a 1S response for me.

[lowerline]

Assume that you are playing the version of 2/1 where rebidding the major is the neutral bid, not 2NT. After 1H - 2C, with a hand with 4 spades and 6 hearts, I would expect a 2H rebid. (If this isn't standard, please tell me.)

 

My partner is trying to convince me that it's better to play the other way, and to bid 2S with this and show the sixth heart later. Thinking about future auctions, it seemed mostly like a wash to me, so I was wondering what advantages there are to playing it one way or the other that I might not be seeing.

 

Any thoughts?

 

2♥ when not strong enough to reverse (11-14)

2♠ when strong enough to reverse (15+)

 

Note that after a 1♥ opening responder will only skip a 4crd spade suit with 5 or more clubs, so he can bid 2♠ over openers 2♥.

Not so after a 1♠ opening: if you don't rebid 2♥ you risk loosing the heart fit.

 

Steven

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Any thoughts?

I have a "home grown" system ( which I've mentioned before ) for a 1H open with a 2/1 GF, 2m Response to show:

A) Minimum open w/ or w/o 4 cards ♠

 

B) Extras ( 15+ ) w/ or w/o 4 cards ♠

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

A)

1H - 2m

2H! ( any minimum ) - 2S! ( asks )

??

... 2NT = NO 4 cards ♠; ( If Responder bids 3-minor, then next bid by Opener can show extra ♥ length with 3H bid )

... 3C = 4 cards ♠ w/ ♣ shortness

... 3D = 4 cards ♠ / ♦ shortness

... 3H = 4 6 ( 1 2 ); 3S next asks where shortness

... 3S = 4 5 2 2

 

B)

1H - 2m

??

... 2NT = extras and NO 4 cards ♠

... 2S = extras w/ NO 4 cards ♠

[JLOGIC]

I always bid 2S. To me 2H and then 3S should not show 4 spades, in the buffett cup I bid that way with AQx AKxxxx xx xx.

[fromageGB]

It's important to rebid 2♠ if you rebid 2♣ on a lot of balanced or short-club hands, since if partner has four spades and a balanced hand he will rebid 2NT since 2♠ would sound like it promises real clubs.

This depends on your methods. I think it perfectly playable to have a 2♣ response that is either a natural (5+) suit, or a balanced 16+ hand. Getting the strength across immediately is beneficial, as is the limitation of the 1♠ response. While it may have clubs, a 2♠ rebid shows 4 spades, and if opener without 4 spades supports clubs, 3NT denies a real club 2/1, with a good club hand making a cue bid. What is the problem with this?

[the hog]

This depends on your methods. I think it perfectly playable to have a 2♣ response that is either a natural (5+) suit, or a balanced 16+ hand. Getting the strength across immediately is beneficial, as is the limitation of the 1♠ response. While it may have clubs, a 2♠ rebid shows 4 spades, and if opener without 4 spades supports clubs, 3NT denies a real club 2/1, with a good club hand making a cue bid. What is the problem with this?

 

What is the problem with this?

Confusion at a high level.

[fromageGB]

Any method with a relay is confusing if one doesn't play that way. Do it a few times, and it becomes easy.

[Free]

Any method with a relay is confusing if one doesn't play that way. Do it a few times, and it becomes easy.

Yeah, I rebid 2♥ all the time, because it shows "4♠ any strength"... :D

[fromageGB]

Yeah, I rebid 2♥ all the time, because it shows "4♠ any strength"... :D

Never tried that one !

 

Might I suggest 1♥ 2♣! 2♦! gives you a little more room to unwind? A bid other than 2♦! should express a certain type of hand, such as 2♥ = self sufficient, no other contract contemplated, 2♠ = a 56xx, or 3♣/♦ = a strong hand 5 card minor.