Language difficulties

[Cyberyeti]

I've just come back from Pula where a number of languages were spoken, and I got a bad board largely because a Polish opponent tried to explain correctly, but his English wasn't very good and he used the word "both" when he meant "either" (I didn't pursue it as we were out of the running and it wasn't 100% clear I'd have bid on anyway). I also gave explanations in my dodgy German and slightly better French. Is there (or should there be) any slack cut by the directing staff if you make a genuine attempt to get it right, but fail due to lack of language skills ?

[Vampyr]

My regular partner was playing with someone else in one of the events in Pula, and when his opponent followed suit with a low heart, he was told by opponent's partner that "he likes that colour". Since the player could not have a good heart holding, my friend assumed that the statement meant that the player liked diamonds. He was surprised when I told him that the speakers of some languages use the word "colour" for "suit". (In the actual case, I think the player in question was encouraging his partner to continue hearts because he had nothing helpful in any suit).

[iviehoff]

Is there (or should there be) any slack cut by the directing staff if you make a genuine attempt to get it right, but fail due to lack of language skills ?

At law, it is your entitlement to get a correct explanation (20F). But a player has no recourse for his own misunderstanding (21A). What constitutes a good explanation probably depends upon the official language of competition. If, say, the regs said that the language of competition was Croatian, then it would be the explainer's fault if he failed to explain accurately in Croatian, and the hearer's own misunderstanding if he had agreed to accept an explanation in a language other than Croatian. The Secretary Bird, to protect himself, would doubtless accept nothing but an explanation in Croatian whenever the opponent couldn't speak it, despite not understanding a word of it himself.

[Trinidad]

I've just come back from Pula where a number of languages were spoken, and I got a bad board largely because a Polish opponent tried to explain correctly, but his English wasn't very good and he used the word "both" when he meant "either" (I didn't pursue it as we were out of the running and it wasn't 100% clear I'd have bid on anyway). I also gave explanations in my dodgy German and slightly better French. Is there (or should there be) any slack cut by the directing staff if you make a genuine attempt to get it right, but fail due to lack of language skills ?

No and yes.

 

No, the AS should be as it always would have been: The NOS was misinformed and were damaged. The OS had an advantage. That will be taken care of in the usual way, trying to restore equity.

 

Yes, normally you would give a PP (which may well be a warning). The purpose of the PP is to teach the offending pair to do things right and to pursuade them from making this mistake again. In a case where a player genuinely attempts to give the correct explanation, such a PP does not serve any purpose. Instead, (try to) teach the offending pair the difference between "both" and "either" with the aim to prevent this mistake from happening again.

 

Rik

[jvage]

I was also in Pula and for me it felt strange when some pairs where only one person spoke any english (in one case only german, which I also speak) were explaining their bids, leads etc. Several times the bidder/opening leader either translated partners explanation or simply explained their own actions :P While not being the correct procedure according to the rules this felt like the most practical solution and it did not cause any problems. A couple of times I did not fully comprehend, but it did not cause any problems when I assumed that the opponents played for instance "Standard Polish Club" (I have played Polish Club in one partnership) and "Standard Polish leads and discards" based on their nationality :)

 

The only time I had problems understanding the explanations was when we played with screens (used at the top 5 tables of the teams-tournament in Pula). A screenmate of mine really struggled, but still refused to revert to written explanations, that may have been easier... It seems to me most players, contrary to regulations, prefer giving oral explanations even when playing with screens. This corresponds to my (admittedly limited) experience from international championships, and it is the same in Norway, where we only use screens in the Premier League and the Teams Final.

 

PS: Perhaps partly because I am not a native english speaker I would have recognized "colour" as probably meaning suit in the example above (or asked to check), but probably not the both/either.

 

John

[gordontd]

PS: Perhaps partly because I am not a native english speaker I would have recognized "colour" as probably meaning suit in the example above (or asked to check), but probably not the both/either.

I recognise "colour" for "suit" too, but only from encounters with non-English players. I don't think that possibility would even occur to most native English-speakers, so they would have no reason to check.

[wank]

some of them only understand what they want to understand.

 

Me: what leads do you play?

Pole: low from doubleton

result: i played for him to have 4 and lo and behold.

[Cyberyeti]

Another one I came across (never having played 3rd/5th leads in my life) was a player leading 4th from Q108x which her partner implied was normal because "you can't spare the 8". Is this normal and should a caveat be put on the explanation of 3rd/5th if it's not ?

 

Congrats to Gordon on his promotion.

 

I had this conversation several times:

 

Me: What system do you play ?

Opp: standard

Me: Where are you from ?

Opp: Poland/France/Holland/Romania/Hungary/Italy

 

Standard meaning several different things depending on where they were from.

 

Another explanation that got me into trouble was a Polish club pair (who I didn't know were playing PC) describing 1♣ as prepared (which to me is clubs/bal) when the club opener had an unbalanced big hand.

[lamford]

Congrats to Gordon on his promotion.

Yes. Thoroughly deserved.

[jvage]

Another one I came across (never having played 3rd/5th leads in my life) was a player leading 4th from Q108x which her partner implied was normal because "you can't spare the 8". Is this normal and should a caveat be put on the explanation of 3rd/5th if it's not ?

 

 

3rd/5th leads are pretty standard in Norway. In Pula we (almost) always qualified 3rd/5th with "normally" (so that the opponents could ask about exceptions, noone did...), I think me and partner chose 4th 1 time each from similar holdings during the week. Another holding that for some 3rd/5th leaders is an exception is leading from a six-card suit. Some lead 4th best, to make them easier to distinguish from lowest from 5 (we sometimes also lead second best from weak suits, but only when known to hold length).

 

PS: We actually had a CC available at the table describing these lead-agreements even if the regulations specifically said it was non-mandatory.

 

John

[gwnn]

It happened to me in Romania that I told an opp that 2♦ shows a weak hand with either major (in English - my partner was not Romanian) and she understood both (she thought "either major" meant "hearts and spades", because her English was not good enough). I guess tough luck, or should I always make super sure that my opponents understand my explanations?

[RMB1]

Another one I came across (never having played 3rd/5th leads in my life) was a player leading 4th from Q108x which her partner implied was normal ...

 

I have noticed this twice. Years ago, partner lead fourth rather than the "systemic" third-best 8 or 9. We agreed at the end of the hand that we could do that and our opponent thought that was a normal agreement. (Nevertheless, I noted the exception on our convention card because I am a nerd.)

 

Earlier this week a different partner lead a "systemic" third-best 8 and it cost a trick, a game swing, and led to a tie and play-off, which we lost ...

[Zelandakh]

It happened to me in Romania that I told an opp that 2♦ shows a weak hand with either major (in English - my partner was not Romanian) and she understood both (she thought "either major" meant "hearts and spades", because her English was not good enough). I guess tough luck, or should I always make super sure that my opponents understand my explanations?

I think it is better to say "one major" or, better yet, "hearts or spades" since both are less apt to being misunderstood than "either major". I also run into language difficulties fairly often since I do not speak the local language as well as I would like. Sometimes that means having someone translate an explanation. I also try to avoid explanations such as "Prepared" but rather say the range (points or descriptive) together with possible shapes. This generally works quite well but sometimes gets an amused response: 1NT - 2♦ "5 or more hearts." Oh, you mean Transfer!" So for the 2♦ opening, what is wrong with "5 to 9 points; 6-plus hearts or 6-plus spades"? or whatever it is.

 

So if you were damaged by the PC pair saying "Prepared" then I think you are entitled to redress. A convention name is not enough, especially when it is commonly played differently. Similarly, if I misinformed the opponents due to my poor German in a local competition and that resulted in damage then I would find it normal to be ruled against. If there is a major language barrier that cannot be handled with simple oral explanations then writing things down can sometimes help - at least that way you can draw the suit sysmbols and use recognisable numbers. In an event with screens it seems ridiculous not to use such aids if you (or your opponents) are obviously struggling.

[mycroft]

My regular partner was playing with someone else in one of the events in Pula, and when his opponent followed suit with a low heart, he was told by opponent's partner that "he likes that colour". Since the player could not have a good heart holding, my friend assumed that the statement meant that the player liked diamonds. He was surprised when I told him that the speakers of some languages use the word "colour" for "suit". (In the actual case, I think the player in question was encouraging his partner to continue hearts because he had nothing helpful in any suit).

s/some languages/most languages that aren't English/ in my experience.

 

Perhaps, more correctly, most European languages that aren't English. Certainly French (couleur == suit, "bicouleur deux coeur" = Polish 2♥), Swedish, German, and I believe Italian. I haven't played in non-Western languages.

 

I will admit, the first time that came up for me, I got thrown.

[joostb1]

s/some languages/most languages that aren't English/ in my experience.

 

Perhaps, more correctly, most European languages that aren't English. Certainly French (couleur == suit, "bicouleur deux coeur" = Polish 2♥), Swedish, German, and I believe Italian. I haven't played in non-Western languages.

 

 

In Dutch as well.

[Quantumcat]

Perhaps someone should write some bridge phrasebooks? It could contain a large selection of conventions, and you can dog-ear or stick a bookmark in all the ones you are likely to be asked, so you can either explain, or just show the page of the book to your opponent, when they ask.

[pran]

Perhaps someone should write some bridge phrasebooks? It could contain a large selection of conventions, and you can dog-ear or stick a bookmark in all the ones you are likely to be asked, so you can either explain, or just show the page of the book to your opponent, when they ask.

I remember someone did just that (on Internet) some time (years?) ago. I provided him (her?) with Norwegian translations.

 

And in Norwegian "Farge" in bridge is Clubs, Diamonds, Hearts and Spades ("Suit") but also (for instance) Red and Black ("Colour") .

[gnasher]

If someone had made an effort to speak to me in my own language because I didn't speak theirs, I'd be very reluctant to ask for a ruling about misinformation. Apart from anything else, I want the opponents to be equally cooperative next time they encounter an overseas visitor.

 

The English are particularly likely to have this sort of problem, because most of us are awful at foreign languages and too lazy to do anything about it. (I'm not saying that Cyberyeti falls into this category - in fact, it sounds as though he made more effort than most of his compatriots would.)

 

As others have said, paper is good because you can use suit symbols, numerals, plus signs, and useful words like "or". I also sometimes prepare written explanations for particular bids in the local language. And I think having one opponent translate for the other is absolutely fine.

 

I found some useful English-German bridge dictionaries here:

http://www.bridgeverein.de/index.php?woerterbuch-englisch-deutsch&glossary=A

http://www.bridgeguys.com/International/GermanTerms.html

http://www.bridgeakademie-froehner.de/Wiki.jsp?page=Bridgew%F6rterbuch

 

And English-French:

http://www.webridge.fr/91/Infos_Administratives/Lexiques/Lexique_A_F/432.htm

http://bridgefx.free.fr/Dictionnaire_francais-anglais-01.htm

[Cyberyeti]

If someone had made an effort to speak to me in my own language because I didn't speak theirs, I'd be very reluctant to ask for a ruling about misinformation. Apart from anything else, I want the opponents to be equally cooperative next time they encounter an overseas visitor.

 

The English are particularly likely to have this sort of problem, because most of us are awful at foreign languages and too lazy to do anything about it. (I'm not saying that Cyberyeti falls into this category - in fact, it sounds as though he made more effort than most of his compatriots would.)

 

The first sentence sums up my feelings (although in Pula, it seemed to be more visitors from other places than locals, we played way more Poles than people from the former Yugoslavia), and this was part of the purpose of the thread.

 

And yes I studied French/German/Spanish to O level 30 years ago, so do try to communicate in other peoples' languages if I reckon my skills in their language are better than their skills in mine.

[Vampyr]

The English are particularly likely to have this sort of problem, because most of us are awful at foreign languages and too lazy to do anything about it. (I'm not saying that Cyberyeti falls into this category - in fact, it sounds as though he made more effort than most of his compatriots would.)

 

This is pretty unfair. Lots of English and American people can speak a foreign language or two, but this will not help in most situations. We might be able to speak French, Japanese and Russian, and this will be useful against a few pairs in a place like Pula; still we will have a problem communicating with all of the other pairs.

[Vampyr]

Perhaps someone should write some bridge phrasebooks? It could contain a large selection of conventions, and you can dog-ear or stick a bookmark in all the ones you are likely to be asked, so you can either explain, or just show the page of the book to your opponent, when they ask.

 

I think that just my own agreements, written out in five or six languages, would result in a pretty unwieldy book, and if you added the vast majority of existing conventions and treatments, which I obviously don't play, you would need several volumes to hold it all. And if you played a variation on something in the phrasebook, how would you make the appropriate changes in all the languages? This idea would not be workable.

 

If people were going to use some sort of book, it would better to create their own in a notebook. The agreements could then be presented in graphic form (2♥ = 4-10 HCP, 6♠ or 4-4-4-1, 17+) rather than translated explanations.

[VixTD]

I found some useful English-German bridge dictionaries here:

http://www.bridgeverein.de/index.php?woerterbuch-englisch-deutsch&glossary=A

http://www.bridgeguys.com/International/GermanTerms.html

http://www.bridgeakademie-froehner.de/Wiki.jsp?page=Bridgew%F6rterbuch

I note that the first one offers "stop bid" as a translation of Abschlussgebot, which would be misleading to English speakers.

[Zelandakh]

I note that the first one offers "stop bid" as a translation of Abschlussgebot, which would be misleading to English speakers.

A few others were also problematic, such as make = mischen (meaning deal) and throw-in = verwerfen (meaning passout). Also, I find it interesting that Leo has a possible cardgame meaning for verwerfen as revoke - that might make for an interesting discussion too! I was actually pleasantly surprised how many of these I have absorbed (even when I have not come across verwerfen before).

[barmar]

This is pretty unfair. Lots of English and American people can speak a foreign language or two, but this will not help in most situations. We might be able to speak French, Japanese and Russian, and this will be useful against a few pairs in a place like Pula; still we will have a problem communicating with all of the other pairs.

And even if you speak the other language, there's a good chance the vocabulary you learned would not include bridge jargon, unless you make a special effort to learn it.

 

A few months ago the ACBL Bulletin had an article on bridge terminology in other countries.

[c_corgi]

A tournament with a particularly cosmopolitan atmosphere such as this seems like a good thing. The way forward is surely to have more tolerance and patience with people struggling with a foreign language rather than penalise it.