Good passed hands

[broze]

So my question is about how to show strong passed hands (10-11) and what rebids by opener mean.

 

I play original one-way Drury without frills but what do I do when I don't have 3 card support for my partner's major but still want to show a very good hand? What is the standard expert method - to incorporate it into Drury?

 

My question is a general one but here is a relevant (and painful!) example of a misunderstanding I had at the table:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=s543hqj4dj5cqjt82&w=sqt7h92dkq432ca74&n=skj62h873dt86c953&e=sa98hakt65da97ck6&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=ppp1hp2dp3dppp]399|300[/hv]

 

I sat East and thought my 3♦ bid was game-forcing and my p clearly thought differently. He proceeded to take all 13 tricks for a bottom.

 

So generally - how forcing is opener's rebid (2NT, 2M, 3m) after a 2 over 1 response from a passed partner? Sorry for so many questions but I feel I am missing something important.

 

EDIT: No responses about how you would have opened the West hand plx!

[TWO4BRIDGE]

If playing Drury:

p - 1H

1NT - 2NT ( 18,19 )

3NT

 

If No Drury, the 2D bid should show 10,11 hcp with 5+ card suit:

p - 1H

2D - 3NT

[paulg]

So generally - how forcing is opener's rebid (2NT, 2M, 3m) after a 2 over 1 response from a passed partner? Sorry for so many questions but I feel I am missing something important.

I think you are only missing that this is just a very under-discussed topic. But I would play that a new suit and non-game jumps are forcing, everything else can be passed.

[Codo]

1. Even if 3 ♦ is just invitational, West with his supermaximum should never pass.

2. 3 ♦ must be forcing, this is of more use then to have a possible invitation opposite such a well defined hand.

3. I have no fitting system for you, I played one before, but it simply happens too seldom to be of bigger value.

4. 2 in your major is nonforcing, esp. after a third hand opening which can be very limited. I see no reason to change anything about the 2 NT rebid, this is still strong and GF for me. For the same reason 3 m is always gf too, no matter whether this is a raise or a new suit.

[JLOGIC]

everything but rebidding 2 of your major is forcing (IMO)

[phil_20686]

So my question is about how to show strong passed hands (10-11) and what rebids by opener mean.

 

I play original one-way Drury without frills but what do I do when I don't have 3 card support for my partner's major but still want to show a very good hand? What is the standard expert method - to incorporate it into Drury?

 

My question is a general one but here is a relevant (and painful!) example of a misunderstanding I had at the table:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=s543hqj4dj5cqjt82&w=sqt7h92dkq432ca74&n=skj62h873dt86c953&e=sa98hakt65da97ck6&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=ppp1hp2dp3dppp]399|300[/hv]

 

I sat East and thought my 3♦ bid was game-forcing and my p clearly thought differently. He proceeded to take all 13 tricks for a bottom.

 

So generally - how forcing is opener's rebid (2NT, 2M, 3m) after a 2 over 1 response from a passed partner? Sorry for so many questions but I feel I am missing something important.

 

EDIT: No responses about how you would have opened the West hand plx!

 

3d should be forcing. You do not need invitational bids by opener, when responder is already constrained to be 9-11 HCP!!! You just pass, or force to game.

 

So as well as rebidding 2M as NF, you should also discuss the sequence 1s-2d-2h, which should also be forcing, but many old school players seem to think this is NF.

[JLOGIC]

So as well as rebidding 2M as NF, you should also discuss the sequence 1s-2d-2h, which should also be forcing, but many old school players seem to think this is NF.

 

LOL uk.

 

Just kidding but I don't think any american player would think this, pretty much the first rule we learn is if you change suits in auctions like this it's forcing. I get the feeling in old school acol people generally had to jump to force.

[phil_20686]

LOL uk.

 

Just kidding but I don't think any american player would think this, pretty much the first rule we learn is if you change suits in auctions like this it's forcing. I get the feeling in old school acol people generally had to jump to force.

 

Quite. :)

[gwnn]

I heard even 1S-2D; 3H is played as NF by some in Acol, can that be?

 

For OP: you should play some clever 1M-1NT structure and that would probably help. If you do not have a good suit but you would hate partner passing 1NT you should've opened.

[Zelandakh]

I heard even 1S-2D; 3H is played as NF by some in Acol, can that be?

Not in normal Acol, no. If you play that a 2♥ rebid is forcing then it is possible, if unusual, to play that the jump to 3♥ is a weak 5-5.

 

As for a 2♦ response, there are several possible ways of playing it. For example, if you usually play 1M - 3m as invitational, you might decide to divert these via a 2♦ response as a passed hand in order to free those up as 4 card raises. Then the OP hand would go via a semi-forcing 1NT response. If 2♦ is simply natural and 5+ then it makes sense for 2M to be the emergency break (including a weak 5332) and everything else to be forcing.

[JLOGIC]

If 2♦ is simply natural and 5+ then it makes sense for 2M to be the emergency break (including a weak 5332) and everything else to be forcing.

 

Wouldn't 5332 just pass?

[kenrexford]

This is an interesting problem to me.

 

First of all, the definition of a 2♦ response as natural by a passed hand is somewhat unclear. I mean, at the top end, style is somewhat importnt. With a good 5-card diamond suit and working 11 HCP hands, like the one given, I personally would open 1♦ (actually 1♣ because I play 1♦ as unbalanced, but I am getting off point). 11 HCP working plus a good 5-card suit is a balanced minimum opening, IMO.

 

Additionally, as to top end, if you use a struct Rule-of-20 for openings, then an 11-count must be 5332, as with a sixth diamond (perhaps impossible if Weak 2♦ available, unless points external) or with a 5-4 holding in two suits, you would have enough to open with 11 HCP.

 

Furthermore, if 5332, the pattern is assuredly with doubleton in Opener's major.

 

As to low end, 2♦ seems to be a constructive call. Some might think 10-11 is the range (a vestige of Standard American by a non-passed hand, perhaps), but already a 9-11 range is suggested, and I would have imagined 8-11 (albeit with the 11 severely restricted by my opening style).

 

In any event, it seems like 2♦ is predictably 9.5 HCP with usually 5332 shape and doubleton in Opener's major.

 

Thus, it does seem that most bids should be forcing, except Opener repeating his major. But, does that make sense? Why be forced to play 2M or 2♦ if Opener has, say, a 5-card holding in his major, 1-2 diamonds, stuff in both side suits, and a minimum opening? Why would you not want to play 2NT, especially at MP? To have 2NT be forcing seems really dumb. I don't care what conventional wisdom, expert treatment, or force of tradition says, the inability to hear an incredibly descriptive bid and select 2NT to play seems really poor logic.

 

I am also thinking about 3♦ as forcing. I agree. Even if only one-round forcing, where you could stop at 4♦ if Responder is on the 8.5 to 9 HCP holding, forcing one round makes sense. That said, this does not really help much in unwinding what is going on, at least in this situation. So, maybe 2NT as forcing solves this problem at the cost of not being able to play 2NT?

 

Then I started thinking, in light of the bizarre discussion about the new major being non-forcing as a possible treatment. When Responder is just about known to have 3235 shape after a 1♥ opening in 3rd/4th seat, why bid 2♠ naturally? Showing 5♠/6♥? Sure, that is possible, but then maybe that rare situation should result in a JUMP to 3♠, forcing, to allow 2♠ to serve a potentially more useful meaning, like agreeing diamonds. The same parallel might not exist for 1♠ openings, as 5♠/5♥ is much less remote than 5♠/6♥.

 

In the specific situation of P-1♥-2♦, using 2♠ as forcing and artificial would solve a lot of problems. First, it is cheap enough to not bpass 3♣ when Opener has slam interest and a diamond fit. Second, it allows Opener to bid 2NT to play.

 

So, what if we add in this new call? (After P-P-1♥-P-2♦ or P-P-P-1♥-P-2♦, Opener rebids 2♠ as artificial and forcing, implying a diamond fit.)

 

Now, it seems that perhaps cuebidding (my way) works as well as anything.

 

2NT would deny good diamonds (not two of the top three diamonds). 3♣, instead, would confirm good diamonds and show a club control (Ace or King). 3♦ would confirm good trumps, deny a club control, but show really good diamonds (Ace, King, Queen). 3♥ would confirm good trumps (two of the top three), deny a club control (not Ace or King), deny all three top diamonds, but show the Ace, King, or Queen of hearts. 3♠ would confirm good trumps, deny a club control, deny all three top diamonds, deny a heart card, but show a spade control. 3NT would confirm good trumps, deny a club or spade control (no Ace or King), deny a heart card, and deny good diamonds (hence Quacks abundant).

 

If Responder bids 2NT (not great trumps), Opener could bid 3♣ to show a club control, and the same type of structure occurs (with 3NT either denying a control or possibly only a club control).

 

If Responder bids 3♣ (club Ace or King and two top diamonds), he has already shown at least 8 HCP already (club King, diamond King-Queen), and possibly more. So, 3♦ waiting by Opener would allow Responder to show the heart Queen or King, deny the same but show the spade King or Queen, or deny any of these by bidding 3NT.

 

Stuff like that seems really good.

 

So, how would this play out with the actual hands?

 

P-1♥

2♦-2♠!

3♣(two top diamonds, plus club Ace known by Opener))-3♦(anything else?)

3♠(I don't have the heart Queen to fiull in your suit, but I do have the King or Queen of spades)-?

 

Opener would now visualize ♠Qxx ♥xx ♦KQxxx ♣Axx, because Kxx in spades would surely mean a 1♦ opening.

 

Thus, for the actual hands, Opener using these methods would strangely be able to decipher Opener's exact pattern and every precise card held. Granted, other hands might bnot be so easily described. Take, for example, switching the black cards (♠Kxx ♥xx ♦KQxxx ♣Qxx). Now:

 

P-1♥

2♦-2♠!

3♠!

 

In that sequence, Opener would know that Responder held KQxxx in diamonds, plus the spade King (as Opener is looking at the Ace), without the Qx in hearts. Opener would also know that Responder did not have the club Ace (although the Queen is possible). Hence, Responder might have:

 

♠Kxx ♥xx ♦KQxxx ♣Qxx, or

♠KJx ♥Jx ♦KQxxx ♣xxx, or

♠KQx ♥xx ♦KQxxx ♣Jxx, or

Any number of similar hand types.

 

But, we would be a lot closer to unwinding Responder's hand.

[ArtK78]

I guess I am an old school player. To me, no simple rebid by opener facing a passed hand is forcing. To force opposite a passed hand, one has to make a jump rebid in a new suit or, if the opponents have intervened, a cue bid.

 

And no bid by the passed hand is forcing on the opener except for a cue bid.

 

I remember in one of my early games (before many Forum members were born) I was playing as partner with the club TD. Playing old-fashioned Standard American, in which double raises of a major were forcing, Jacoby 2NT and Drury did not exist and 2/1 bids showed 10+HCP, we had a classic SA auction - 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♦ - 3♠ - 4♠. As responder, I was proud to have produced such a fine description of my 11 point hand with 3 card spade support, and I commented on the auction after the hand was over. My partner said that the auction was fine, except that I was a passed hand and that she could have passed 2♣, so I should have just jumped to 3♠ immediately which, as a passed hand, would be invitational.

Edited September 18, 2012 by ArtK78

[kenrexford]

I guess I am an old school player. To me, no simple rebid by opener facing a passed hand is forcing. To force opposite a passed hand, one has to make a jump rebid in a new suit or, if the opponents have intervened, a cue bid.

 

And no bid by the passed hand is forcing on the opener except for a cue bid.

 

I remember in one of my early games (before many Forum members were born) playing as partner with a club TD. Playing old-fashioned Standard American, in which double raises of a major were forcing, Jacoby 2NT and Drury did not exist and 2/1 bids showed 10+HCP, we had a classic SA auction - 1S - 2C - 2D - 3S - 4S. As responder, I was proud to have produced such a fine description of my 11 point hand with 3 card spade support, and I commented on the auction after the hand was over. My partner said that the auction was fine, except that I was a passed hand and that she could have passed 2C, so I should have just jumped to 3S immediately.

 

Even in "old school" a reverse (2♠) or a high reverse (3♣) would be forcing, even opposite a passed hand.

[lalldonn]

Although I can see the logic that a min balanced hand would just pass 2♦, I think it's debatable whether opener's 2NT rebid is forcing or not. But I'd be happy to play it is.

[barmar]

Although I can see the logic that a min balanced hand would just pass 2♦, I think it's debatable whether opener's 2NT rebid is forcing or not. But I'd be happy to play it is.

2NT seems better than pass with a minimum 4=5=1=3.

[ArtK78]

Even in "old school" a reverse (2♠) or a high reverse (3♣) would be forcing, even opposite a passed hand.

I don't believe that a reverse or a "high reverse" is considered to be a simple rebid. If the passed hand made a 2/1 response, it still showed 10-12 HCP, so over a strength showing bid like a reverse or a high reverse you would be in a game forcing auction.

 

Even over a 1/1 response by a passed hand, if opener reverses, that should show enough strength to create a force.

[kenrexford]

I don't believe that a reverse or a "high reverse" is considered to be a simple rebid. If the passed hand made a 2/1 response, it still showed 10-12 HCP, so over a strength showing bid like a reverse or a high reverse you would be in a game forcing auction.

 

Even over a 1/1 response by a passed hand, if opener reverses, that should show enough strength to create a force.

 

 

What are you talking about!?!? The auction we are discussing is P-P-1♥-P-2♦-P-? There are no new-suit bids that are not reverses or high reverses. So, what on erath did your original comment mean, then?

 

 

If you are speaking of the alternative P-P-1♠-P-2♦-P-2♥ sequence, there is no "old school" that plays 2♥ as non-forcing, as this auctiuon is forcing to at least 2♠ or 3♥, also. If you are saying that this sequence is non-forcing opposite a very limited hand, then, OK, but how is that "old school?"

[awm]

This auction should revert to how you play non gf 2/1s. In the US that's SA, in England Acol. The problem is easy for those of us who play non gf 2/1s always!

 

Based on disciplined SAYC all openers rebids (except pass) are F1. By inference:

 

2H is catch all

2S/3C gf reverse

2N 15+ balanced (18-19 if you open 1nt on 15-17 with 5M)

3D gf raise

 

But a lot of people play much less disciplined SA where 2n/3d are NF.

[barmar]

This auction should revert to how you play non gf 2/1s.

Not necessarily. Some of the rules for non-gf 2/1 are there to cater to the possibility that responder has more than the minimum for his 2/1, and you need to keep the auction alive to find out. But when partner is a passed hand, this isn't necessary.

[PhilKing]

I used to play one way Drury. We played 2♦ as 9-11, but the suit had to be good - not KQxxx. Then opener could pass with a 4513 min or whatever.

 

The "good suit" rule meant we could pot 3NT with a decent 14, and bid 2NT with a good 13 or bad 14 asking for a max.

 

The bid was well enough defined not to need 2NT as a force, or 3 ♦ - 6♦ is just not in the picture after forgetting to open. 2♥ was forcing with 6 though! That you certainly need, imo.

[kenrexford]

Not necessarily. Some of the rules for non-gf 2/1 are there to cater to the possibility that responder has more than the minimum for his 2/1, and you need to keep the auction alive to find out. But when partner is a passed hand, this isn't necessary.

 

What? Responder needs Opener to force Responder to bid so that Responder can show his extras?

[kenberg]

A small point: Best to sort out what is a matter of agreement, what is a matter of judgment.

 

If I held the W hand, playing with a partner with few agreements, when partner raises my 2♦ to 3♦. I wouold reason as follows: If I am not going to bid over 3♦ with this hand, there is no hand that I could have on this auction where I would bid on over 3♦. Partner's 3♦ must have been based on an expectation that on some hand I would go on, it doesn't get better than this, so I bid 3NT.

 

 

This means that with the current hands, not reaching game has nothing to do with the system. I say this not to be critical of your partner, but just to keep our eyes on what perhaps need discussion.

 

Now yes, I also would expect 3♦ to be forcing. I would have bid 2♦ if my Q♦ were the J♦, and probably also if it were the ten.

On these hands, if 3♦ is forcing, then I must still bid.

 

My point is that system shouldn't matter on the actual hands that you were playing. On some weaker hands, when the smoke clears, you may wish that the 3♦ had been passable. I would stick with forcing, I think almost everyone would. But sometimes you go down.

 

If you are worried about missing slam, I say relax a bit. Diamonds are 3-2, hearts are 3-3, etc. I suppose if I saw both hands, but not the opponents hands, I would elect to play in 6. But I wouldn't bet the house on it.

[barmar]

What? Responder needs Opener to force Responder to bid so that Responder can show his extras?

I think I expressed it poorly.

 

My point was that when responder is unpassed, his new suit bids are forcing until he makes a bid that limits his hand, even if you're not playing 2/1 GF. But when he's a passed hand, he has already limited his hand, so very few bids are forcing, even a 2/1 response. Opener can pass with a minimum (and probably will pass with a 3rd seat subminimum).