Getting the best results with a bad partner

[kereru67]

Something I've never seen covered in a bridge book is how to get the best results with a partner who has trouble counting to 13, leads 4th best from QJTxx, passes forcing bids, thinks every single 4NT bid is Blackwood and every single 4C bid is Gerber etc etc. There are many such players at my club :)

 

Any tips?

[billw55]

Something I've never seen covered in a bridge book is how to get the best results with a partner who has trouble counting to 13, leads 4th best from QJTxx, passes forcing bids, thinks every single 4NT bid is Blackwood and every single 4C bid is Gerber etc etc. There are many such players at my club :)

 

Any tips?

Try "Why You Lose at Bridge" by SJ Simon. An oldie but a goodie. Much of the bidding conversation is outdated, but you can follow it, and the rest is ageless.

[Codo]

What is your goal at this club?

 

1. Do you want to have fun? Stay at home, watch TV or have sex. You may play snooker or try some knitting, too.

 

2. Do you want to support partner? Play your normal game and talk about the hands later. Praise him for all missed blunders.

 

3. Do you want to win at all costs?

Play only his conventions and his system. if this is transfers, Gerber and old Black, so be it. Add nothing fancy or new. Don't waste energy with showing the advantages of 5 card majors over 4 card majors (or vice versa).

Handhog the hand.

You must be declarer in all situations possible. To be Dummy is his strongest part of the game. Sacrifice when you are declarer, but seldom with him being declarer...

Open NT a little offshape and with 14-18 (13-19 with novices...)

Always rebid NT, don't raise him. Your 1 NT is superior to his 2 Spade in a 4-4 fit.

7/4 fits in Hearts play great in NT if he has the hearts.

Jump to 4 of a major after his 1 NT opening, even in a 5-2 fit.

 

This will give you better results, but if your victims (there are not partners any more) find out about your attitude, you may be quite alone after a while. Start again with point one and try point two. Makes much more fun then Nr 3, at least for me.

[ggwhiz]

If you want to win respond 1nt with 4 card majors in a 4x3 (even if they open a major) and open 1nt with 5 card majors and 5-4-2-2 (but not both majors) shapes and include chunky 14 counts.

 

And never double them if it might be only down 2.

 

Also overcall like a bandit including 4 card suits when white and be super conservative when red.

[dwar0123]

If you are already going to do poor, let the guy play some hands, he isn't going to get any better being dummy all the time and it isn't that fun either.

 

If your results so far have kept you competitive, be a hand hog :) Doing well is generally always fun, especially for weak players.

[RunemPard]

I feel your pain...My partner and I average around 50% at our club...he is happy, but I know with another partner I can easily add 5-10+% every time. Even when I play with my beginner g/f, we tend to often place in the top 3.

 

I preempt aggressively when I believe I will play. I concentrate on making life difficult for the opponents. I overcall aggressively and will often try to declare a lot when he is having a very bad night. For example...a hand we played today..

 

Partner holds...

AKxx

AKxxxx

x

xx

 

I hold...

Jxxx

Q

xxx

AQJxx

 

1H-1S

2H-3C

3S-AP

 

He opens 1H, I choose to show my major 1st, although I was debating bidding 2C instead. Partner bids...2H. I decide to keep trying and bid 3C. He follows with his 3S bid. After I pass he is angry and refusing to believe that this is not a forcing bid.

 

The worst part for me is that I am trying to take my bidding/play to the next level. I have been playing bridge for about 18 months or so and have learned a lot playing on BBO, watching matches/VGs, reading these forums. He is a nice guy, but ending this partnership has been hard for me to do.

[barmar]

Patient: It hurts when I do this.

 

Doctor: Don't do that.

 

You're not going to find much literature about playing with a bad partner simply because the best advice is to get a different partner. Bridge is a partnership game, you can't expect to do well, or even learn much, by playing in a poor partnership.

 

I feel your pain, though. I've been playing with the same regular partner for over a decade. He's the nicest guy around (everyone envies me for that), and he's not a bad player, either -- we've done reasonably well in Flight B in the past few years. But now we're in Flight A (well, I am, because I go to lots of nationals, while he stays home for them), and I think we may have hit a plateau as a partnership. I could probably improve my game if I played more with other partners, but we have a good rapport. So I'm sticking with him.

[Finch]

I feel your pain...My partner and I average around 50% at our club...he is happy, but I know with another partner I can easily add 5-10+% every time. Even when I play with my beginner g/f, we tend to often place in the top 3.

 

I preempt aggressively when I believe I will play. I concentrate on making life difficult for the opponents. I overcall aggressively and will often try to declare a lot when he is having a very bad night. For example...a hand we played today..

 

Partner holds...

AKxx

AKxxxx

x

xx

 

I hold...

Jxxx

Q

xxx

AQJxx

 

1H-1S

2H-3C

3S-AP

 

He opens 1H, I choose to show my major 1st, although I was debating bidding 2C instead. Partner bids...2H. I decide to keep trying and bid 3C. He follows with his 3S bid. After I pass he is angry and refusing to believe that this is not a forcing bid.

 

IHe's right, 3S is forcing.

2H was a very odd call, though.

[han]

Indeed, an odd auction.

[barmar]

IHe's right, 3S is forcing.

More to the point, 3♣ should be game forcing, so he doesn't have to worry about whether his bids are forcing.

2H was a very odd call, though.

Agreed. Having not supported earlier, his delayed 3♠ sounds like only 3-card support, and might even be honor doubleton because you should have at least 5 spades in this auction.

 

2♥ was a significant underbid, 3♠ would be much better. Give you a slightly better hand and you should be able to make a spade slam.

[dwar0123]

IHe's right, 3S is forcing.

2H was a very odd call, though.

 

What does partner(the 2H bidder) do with

kqx

akxxxx

xx

xx

[kenrexford]

This is not directly on point (or is it?), but sometimes aggressive catering to partner's failings may pay dividends.

 

Years ago, a nice lady from my home town was unable to attain LM status because she could not get her gold points. So, I decided to set upon a project. After a few games with her, I realized that one major problem was her timidity, an insanely so. She would have considered Roth and Stone to be crazy overbidders. Passing was her favorite bid.

 

So, I devised a relatively simple system with light initial action. We opened almost every 8-count. She was required to overcall 0-count hands if she had a five-card suit on the side. In other words, I forced her to bid on utter garbage. Now, for me this had some interesting results, like being able to spot a 3-5 fit after 1♣-P-1♠, where I could overcall 2♣ with a 3-card suit naturally, to play. But, I digress...

 

What this did was to teach her more effectively than any other means the concept of points schmoints, the benefit of obstruction, and the like. It also created an insane world for the opponents to enter, as a result of which no one had a clue what was going on. This was good, because I figured that I would do much better with all four players clueless than with just me and partner clueless, and I got really good at essentially no-peek bridge.

 

The end result was a series of nice wins and plenty of gold points to put her well over her needs.

 

Now, that might be extreme, but the general idea is sound. If you have a brainless partner who has a specific situation type that recurs, maybe try finding a tool (even if that tool is nuts for good players) to combat that failing. One insane thiong I see a lot is people who transfer and then jump to game in a major with a 5-card suit. This is of course dumb, but explaining this never seems to work with some people. The problem is that they do not feel like they bid the 5-card suit if all they did was to transfer. So, make 1NT-P-3M invitational, but then make a transfer followed by rebidding the suit game-forcing:

 

1NT-P-3♥ = invitational

1NT-P-2♦(hearts)-P-2♥-P-3♥ = GF

 

This is a dumb way to play. But, it lets them bid their hearts twice with five of them, which comforts them. So, play that. Or, skip transfers altogether!

 

You can also protect against partners by making some unorthodox plays on defense. For example, what do you lead from K-9-3-2? Obviously, the 2 seems clear. But, there is a lot to be said for the lead of the King with the dolt. That way, Declarer with Q-4 opposite J-5 does not win a trick. Plus, if partner has the Queen and Jack, he won't pitch it as soon as possible and won't be afraid to lead it later.

[ggwhiz]

Years ago, a nice lady from my home town was unable to attain LM status because she could not get her gold points.

 

Many of our local players in that time frame couldn't tell you when they made life master but could tell you in great detail when they put Dolly over the top.

 

I played with Michelle, a friends girlfriend who was being taken advantage of as a novice and told her that p - p to her was a mandatrory opening and if I opened, we declared or she must double them. We scratched with 55% or so.

 

Next game her boyfriend said "What did you do to Michelle? She doubled ME twice!" (and any player that thought they were good the rest of the time). They scratched too.

[kenrexford]

Many of our local players in that time frame couldn't tell you when they made life master but could tell you in great detail when they put Dolly over the top.

 

I played with Michelle, a friends girlfriend who was being taken advantage of as a novice and told her that p - p to her was a mandatrory opening and if I opened, we declared or she must double them. We scratched with 55% or so.

 

Next game her boyfriend said "What did you do to Michelle? She doubled ME twice!"

 

LOL!

 

On a similar note, one of my favorite experiences was playing with a pickup partner in DC. At about the third hand, he doubled my LHO's opening, and the double turned out later to be penalty. So, I knew I was in for a ride. On the last hand of the set, the auction was 1NT-P-3NT to me, and I held a 4-4-2-3 yarborough. So, I doubled of course.

 

Declarer ended up down one because he played everything wrong, as expected.

 

The best part, however, was Declarer's reaction. Declarer was obviously a young player who had a brain for the game. Without making any comments or showing any signs of frustration or anger at what had happened, or even blinking, he turned to me and asked whether he could have unwound the diamond suit and made the contract in the end. I responded that he knew that I had nothing, and that therefore the solution was an intrafinesse to smother my 10-x in diamonds. He agreed that this was obvious in retrospect, and we had a nice smoke discussing bridge theory.

[RunemPard]

Sorry for disagreeing, but those of you saying 3♠ is forcing are assuming I had a hand worthy of a 3♣ bid to begin with. Based on my partner's bidding and my hand, 3♠ is 100% NF IMO. Partner thinks that I have 5♠ and could easily have 3 card support with a hand like...

 

Kxx

AKxxxx

Qx

xx

 

Honestly...with Jxxx in ♠s, 3 junk ♦s, and most values in ♣s, I would rather just sit on 3♠ at MP. He limited his hand to me when he is sitting on a gold mine.

[Balrog49]

Something I've never seen covered in a bridge book is how to get the best results with a partner who has trouble counting to 13, leads 4th best from QJTxx, passes forcing bids, thinks every single 4NT bid is Blackwood and every single 4C bid is Gerber etc etc. There are many such players at my club :)

 

Any tips?

My experience in this area is primarily the New England Regional Individual, in which you get some really awful partners. Here's what's worked for me:

1. Keep a smile on your face no matter what happens.
2. Don't discuss poor results at the table unless partner asks you to teach while playing.
3. Don't expect partner to understand anything sophisticated. Use only the most straightforward bidding sequences and defensive strategies.
4. Mastermind like crazy. It's better to play the hand in the wrong strain than to watch partner throw away tricks in the right strain.

[CSGibson]

Sorry for disagreeing, but those of you saying 3♠ is forcing are assuming I had a hand worthy of a 3♣ bid to begin with. Based on my partner's bidding and my hand, 3♠ is 100% NF IMO. Partner thinks that I have 5♠ and could easily have 3 card support with a hand like...

 

Kxx

AKxxxx

Qx

xx

 

Honestly...with Jxxx in ♠s, 3 junk ♦s, and most values in ♣s, I would rather just sit on 3♠ at MP. He limited his hand to me when he is sitting on a gold mine.

 

Your partner is right, 3♠ is forcing. 3♣ is a game-forcing call, so all calls after that are forcing by definition until you reach game. Though I have to admit the defense that "I misbid so badly early in the auction that I felt it was right to pass a forcing bid" is unique.

 

Stop being concerned with your own superiority, and listen to players like Frances, and perhaps listen to your partner also.

 

Also, seriously, at 18 months playing this game there's a strong likelihood that you don't know what you don't know. Don't teach partner, instead take problem hands to an expert and have them go over auctions/bids by both sides and come up with take-aways.

 

Edit: Thanks Gwnn, did not mean to misspell Frances's name.

[CSGibson]

As to the OP - The best way to do well with bad players is to recognize what type of bad player they are, and start hedging your auctions to their disabilities. Are they a bad opening leader? Overcall more aggressively with lead-directional suits. Are they too timid? Compensate by being a touch more aggressive in your own bidding. Are they an awful declarer? Then minimum game forcing hands become invitational if they are to play it, and invitations are constructive calls if they are to play it. Hope that you are 2 levels lower, making 2 when others are down 1 in 4. If you are declaring, of course, then you can bid the full value of your hand.

 

Most of all, handle partner. Do not try and teach them anything - it will confuse them, and make them play worse. Instead, praise them for their small victories and commisserate with their defeats. Encourage them. So much of the game is mental, you want them concentrating and playing to the best of their ability, not worrying about the last hand and how they might have played it better.

[ash1968]

How to play bridge with your spouse and survive (Teukolsky?) - just kidding darling!

[RunemPard]

I am going to make a different thread for this hand..sorry if it is a derail.

 

 

Your partner is right, 3♠ is forcing. 3♣ is a game-forcing call, so all calls after that are forcing by definition until you reach game. Though I have to admit the defense that "I misbid so badly early in the auction that I felt it was right to pass a forcing bid" is unique.

 

Stop being concerned with your own superiority, and listen to players like Frances, and perhaps listen to your partner also.

 

Also, seriously, at 18 months playing this game there's a strong likelihood that you don't know what you don't know. Don't teach partner, instead take problem hands to an expert and have them go over auctions/bids by both sides and come up with take-aways.

 

Edit: Thanks Gwnn, did not mean to misspell Frances's name.

 

 

Okay then, tell me what hands partner can possibly have that would bid 2H followed by good support for 4S after?

 

AKx

AKxxxx

xx

xx or singleton or whatever

 

Is possible I suppose...

 

AQx

AKxxxx

xx

xx or singleton or whatever

 

Should I honestly be expecting a 46(21) hand here with AK AK in majors? With the bidding as it was, can you honestly blame me for stopping at 3S?

 

Yes, my 3C bid may not have been my best option. But should I continue bidding? Possibly 3H was a better bid by me, that I may agree to, but I must say parding him often leaves me guessing more times than not. I rarely know what to expect any more. And simply because I argue what someone has to say about my judgment of a hand does not mean I have a superiority issue. I know I am not perfect, this auction was bad on both sides.

 

Again, playing standard, what should I be expecting from partner after this?

 

Let's say we are playing 2/1 rather than typical Swedish Modern Standard. Is bidding 2C 1st even really an option? Had I bid 2C I would hope that partner shows spades next, rebidding hearts later.

 

Thanks,

 

Don

 

 

Also, I have tried going over hands with him many times in the past. It is quite simply, pointless. A player who constantly fails to draw remaining trumps, even in 9 card fits with no reason to not do so, is not a player who will gain much from going over hands. I am just frustrated and trying to get a new partner without hurting his feelings. Maybe that is where my "superiority" issues are coming from.

 

 

Edit: One other thing to mention...I know my partner, and I guarentee 100% that if for some reason I bid the hand the same way and the bidding came to this exact spot, same bids, he would pass. The only reason he says that his bid is forcing, is because he has cards this time. This is how he always is. I swear!

 

The last time we played..2 hands went me opening..

 

1m-1M-1N-2M-AP

 

Each time partner had a decent opening hand himself. I will gladly listen to Frances or anyone else on these forums, I will give my own thoughts and arguements as well, but I will pass on the advice of listening to my partner.

Edited September 14, 2012 by RunemPard

[Fluffy]

I have a lot of experience on this matter, and my best advice is: don't let him play a par contract if he is worse than the field (if you can avoid it, those 10 card major fit stink :( )

[Zelandakh]

Yes, my 3C bid may not have been my best option. But should I continue bidding? Possibly 3H was a better bid by me, that I may agree to, but I must say parding him often leaves me guessing more times than not. I rarely know what to expect any more.

I daresay the feeling is mutual! By bidding 3♣ here you were showing your partner a strong hand. How can he know what to expect from you if you make a strong bid with shrott? It is not much different from opening 2♣ with ♠AJTx/♥QJxx/♦AQ/♣QJx. In the auction 1♥ - 1♠; 2♥, you have 2 emergency breaks with a weak hand - Pass and 2♠. 3♥ would show an invitational hand (as would 2NT and 3♠). So the best action over 2♥ would be to pass. If game makes then it is either unlucky or your partner underbid with 2♥.

 

If the problem is that partner underbids then overbidding to compensate is very bad - all it does is encourage them to underbid more. But that was not the biggest problem here. The problem is that you made an unnecessary psyche in a partnership where trust is already a problem. Just bid your hand and give your partner some trust back. In return, they might stop trying to second guess what crazy thing you are going to do next and start bidding their hand. And try to remember that bridge is a partnership game, not a blame game. Partnership means working together. This is doubly important when you both have so much still to learn.

[barmar]

You BOTH misbid on that hand. He should have raised your spades at his first chance -- once he failed to do that, you could never be expected to realize that he had 4-card support for you. But you should not have bid a game-forcing 3♣; either pass or bid 3♥ at that point.

 

One of the mistakes that new bridge players make is changing their mind in the middle of an auction. You can't make a game forcing bid and then pass because you realize you overbid earlier. Once you're in a game force, partner can make temporizing bids, "knowing" that you won't pass them.

 

You may be wondering why 3♣ is forcing to game, not just an attempt to improve the contract. Because if partner doesn't have a fit for either of your suits, he can't leave you there. If he has diamonds stopped (which he probably will, since he doesn't have much in your suits), he'll bid 3NT. So you have to be strong enough for this to be a reasonable contract opposite a minimum opener.

[RunemPard]

You BOTH misbid on that hand. He should have raised your spades at his first chance -- once he failed to do that, you could never be expected to realize that he had 4-card support for you. But you should not have bid a game-forcing 3♣; either pass or bid 3♥ at that point.

 

One of the mistakes that new bridge players make is changing their mind in the middle of an auction. You can't make a game forcing bid and then pass because you realize you overbid earlier. Once you're in a game force, partner can make temporizing bids, "knowing" that you won't pass them.

 

You may be wondering why 3♣ is forcing to game, not just an attempt to improve the contract. Because if partner doesn't have a fit for either of your suits, he can't leave you there. If he has diamonds stopped (which he probably will, since he doesn't have much in your suits), he'll bid 3NT. So you have to be strong enough for this to be a reasonable contract opposite a minimum opener.

 

 

I knew very well what 3♣ said to my partner. I only bid it because I thought maybe he had something better based on how the whole day had gone from him in general. If anything I decided for once to trust him by passing 3♠! The thing is I was damn well right about my thinking that he was in another monster hand that he cannot see.

 

This is the same partner who couldn't understand how strong..

 

KT54

-

AKT7643

A5

 

was after the bidding went from me... 1D-(2N*)-??

 

3D was his bid...I rose to 5D with...

 

AQJ9

AJ94

Q982

8

 

with no real agreements such as splinters, control bidding, etc. This bid was PASSED!

 

So I am getting quite annoyed with all of these comments about my level of play when I !!DO KNOW!! that 3C is a strong bid IN A PARTNERSHIP WITH SOME KINDA LOGIC.

 

 

 

The guy is a very nice gentleman. A great friend to have. I only pard him because I feel rather horrible trying to explain to him that I would rather play with somebody better. I would hate to lose a friendship over such a silly thing.

 

I often take our hands here as a way to vent my frustrations. I am very competitive, I do not mind losing, but it absolutely drives me mad to do your best against 3 half the night.

[CSGibson]

Hi Don,

If you are unhappy in your partnership then it is definitely best to end the partnership sooner rather than later. A good (and it sounds like accurate) reason for doing so is that you and your partner have different bridge goals, as evidenced by your participation on this board/general desire to improve, vs your partner's apparent lack of desire to work on his own game.

 

I was in a few unequal partnerships starting out, and I know it sometimes feels like you are trapped, and that you would be hurting your partner's feelings by asking to leave. It's probably true that his feelings will be hurt initially, but it sounds like that is going to happen eventually anyway, putting it off is just delaying the inevitable and in turn prolonging your own unhappiness. And, unless you are saint Don of eternal suffering, its very likely that some of your frustration will boil over and make things less enjoyable for your partner, so ending the partnership will be best for both of you in the long run.