Who's to Blame?

[cistern]

Matchpoints, neither team vulnerable. N/S bid as follows:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sk8hq5daqt3ckt872&w=saj64hkj872dk6c93&n=sthat43d9754caq64&e=sq97532h96dj82cj5&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=pp1c1hd1s2d2s4sppp]399|300[/hv]

 

Who do you blame for the bidding, N or S?

 

Double dummy reveals that the best contract for N/S is 5c or 5d with South as declarer, which will always make with perfect play.

 

E/W can make 1H or 3S at best.

[Codo]

I blame both and their methods.

1. Do they know what a double of 1 Heart shows here? Usually it shows 4 spades. If you play a different method, you should have told us.

2. For most of us 2♦ over the double shows extras.

3. 4 Spade sounds like a splinter, but even opposite a real reverse, this bid is an overbid.

4. Passing 4 ♠ is beyond words. I guess south died just before he had to bid and someone from medicare made the final bid without looking at the table...

[aguahombre]

South misunderstood the concept of the forcing pass.

[Bbradley62]

This hand was played in a Free Express Automated Fun game. As such, it is a condition of contest that everyone agrees to play the GIB 2/1 convention card. You should check this out before playing in any more of those tournaments.

 

Certainly, North needs to learn negative doubles before playing with unknown partners; stolen bid doubles are only for people playing house bridge or at Shady Pines.

 

It sounds to me like the pass of 4♠ says "Pard, you obviously don't know what you're doing, since your double showed spades but then everyone showed spades, so I'm not gonna suffer through playing this hand, you're gonna have to do it."

[Antrax]

I sympathize only with west on this auction. N and E are apparently in cahoots.

[sailoranch]

I assign blame to the reality that these are inexperienced players in an unpracticed partnership playing unclear methods (on BBO). North should note that, under standard methods, this is a negative double showing four spades. A cuebid of 2♥ here is typically a limit raise (or better) in clubs.

 

South should realize that it's matchpoints and there's no risk in trying to guess our way out. Also, South should assume that North's bidding makes sense. Spades splitting 3-4 between the opponents is still somewhat consistent with the bidding so far. Perhaps North felt that the surest way to make a slam try was to cue the opponents' suit?

 

The real lesson for North is not to indict partner for misjudging in an awkward situation that North helped create.

[Antrax]

With a queen and two jacks, as well as two card support for partner's overcall, east has no business bidding spades naturally.

[Zelandakh]

stolen bid doubles are only for people playing house bridge or at Shady Pines.

It is not unknown for expert pairs to play that this double denies 4 spades so this statement is a severe overbid. There are situations where Stolen Bid Doubles are demonstrably bad but this is a position where they are perfectly playable. That said, your clarification that this was bid using the GIB 2/1 card is quite astounding. I had wanted to ask the OP to explain what the agreements were for everything after the 1♣ opening. With the given agreements I would have to blame North here - South was only totally bonkers while North was a raving lunatic.

[cistern]

I blame South.

 

1C > 2D usually shows 17+ points. Clearly, East and West have a big Spade fit, so it makes no sense for 4S to be natural (1S opener, 2S preempt or 1H> 1S could make 4S natural. With all this, North's desire to play in game, is in my opinion, perfectly understandable.

 

4S I take is an asking bid, asking partner to choose between Clubs and Diamonds (not hearts as N bid 4S). South should choose 5C, which makes easily enough.

 

South's worst possible 16 HCP hand is

 

JQ ♠

QJ ♥

AJ ♣

KQ ♦

 

Even opposite this hand, game would still be about 50/50.

[Zelandakh]

@cistern, could I ask you to define 4♠ in the following auction...

 

P - P - 1♣ - 1♥

1♠ - X - 2♦ - 2♠

4♠,

 

where the double is alerted as showing spades. Do you think the opponents have a big spade fit? Your analysis seems to miss the fundamental point that partner's double showed spades. Do we trust partner here or the opponents? If we trust partner then they have a 7 card spade fit. That still makes passing crazy but so is rebidding a suit twice with a singleton. South is 1 spade and 2 points (or a club and a diamond) short of sanity; North has close to the opposite hand to the one they are showing. Do you really still think South has bid worse?

[cistern]

@cistern, could I ask you to define 4♠ in the following auction...

 

P - P - 1♣ - 1♥

1♠ - X - 2♦ - 2♠

4♠,

 

where the double is alerted as showing spades. Do you think the opponents have a big spade fit? Your analysis seems to miss the fundamental point that partner's double showed spades. Do we trust partner here or the opponents? If we trust partner then they have a 7 card spade fit. That still makes passing crazy but so is rebidding a suit twice with a singleton. South is 1 spade and 2 points (or a club and a diamond) short of sanity; North has close to the opposite hand to the one they are showing. Do you really still think South has bid worse?

 

The auction doesn't make sense. 1S was bid (which should be natural), jumped to 4S with no sign of support in Spades from partner, yet didn't preempt or weak jump shift at all or open with apparently a motherload of Spades. I would pass 4S as partner, thinking partner must have AKQJT and nothing else.

[Zelandakh]

I would pass 4S as partner, thinking partner must have AKQJT and nothing else.

Ding, ding, ding! That seems to be precisely the reasoning our South was following. Except that in the OP auction the response was double showing spades instead of a 1♠ bid. These are not quite equivalent but if you show a suit and then jump to game in that suit you can hardly complain when partner takes it as natural.

[billw55]

I sympathize only with west on this auction.

Agree. On the evidence of the bidding, all three other players are novices.

 

As for blame, north and south share it more or less equally.

[Bbradley62]

I blame South.

Of course you blame South... YOU WERE NORTH!!

[Bbradley62]

This hand, incidentally, is a reasonable representation of the nonsense that goes on all the time in the Free Express Automated Fun games. Doesn't it look like fun to you?

[billw55]

This hand, incidentally, is a reasonable representation of the nonsense that goes on all the time in the Free Express Automated Fun games. Doesn't it look like fun to you?

That just means that it is generally a novice game. It may not be fun for advanced players, but it could be fun for novices. If novices never had fun, bridge would have died long ago.

[Fluffy]

the opponents bid and raise spades and people are blaming north? lol

 

I don't know of certain agreements that might be in place on specific tournaments, but OP doesn't state any of them. Given that double does not show spades for many people around the world, I think it if perfectly clear what is going on.

[Bbradley62]

I don't know of certain agreements that might be in place on specific tournaments, but OP doesn't state any of them.

That's because OP registered for a tournament without bothering to read the rules, so he didn't know what his partners expected of him.

[semeai]

It doesn't really matter who's to blame. If you were North, just take away from this that the default for most people you meet online is that 1C (1H) X shows 4 spades.

 

Maybe South did something really stupid, partially because he was confused about everyone showing or bidding spades (or maybe not, as some are trying to argue). It doesn't matter: you don't need to interact with that person further; you just met him in a free individual apparently and won't necessarily play with him again.

 

Added: Actually, maybe this wasn't from a free individual; I misread a comment above. It doesn't matter. Just get on the same page as your partner regarding negative doubles if you were North. (South may need advice too, but unless this is your regular partner I wouldn't worry too much about it.)

[billw55]

Given that double does not show spades for many people around the world,

Interesting. I would have thought that this double shows spades almost everywhere. Where do people still play direct penalty doubles of simple overcalls?

[Fluffy]

Interesting. I would have thought that this double shows spades almost everywhere. Where do people still play direct penalty doubles of simple overcalls?

 

Many people in my country bid 1♠ to show spades (4+), and double to ask for the other suits, this translates to 3 types of hands:

 

-balanced weak hand without stopper nor support nor 4 spades (♠xx ♥Jxx ♦KJ9xx ♣Qxx) this type has high frequency (around 80% of the doubles)

-weak 1 suiter in the other minor (♠xxx ♥xx ♦AQJxxx ♣Jx)

-strong hands without spades nor support (the hand on this post is an extreme example, most often this hands have 3 spades)

[sailoranch]

4S I take is an asking bid, asking partner to choose between Clubs and Diamonds

 

Didn't South ask North to choose between clubs and diamonds? By bidding clubs and diamonds?

[sailoranch]

Many people in my country bid 1♠ to show spades (4+), and double to ask for the other suits

 

That's fine, but that wasn't the agreement here. You wouldn't just whip out a treatment common in your country on an unsuspecting partner and then shame her on BBF, would you?

[Codo]

It is not just known in Spain, I guess experts all over the world at least know it.

But may you name many people who think that a one suiter in spades should be bid by double of 1 ♥ and a jump to 4 ♠ afterwards? Funnily- I am one of them, in one partnership X shows 4+ spades, 1 ♠ denies 4 or more of them. :) But this is not part of this problem either- and in my world, my opponents never bid and rais a suit, where my partner holds a onesuiter playable in game opposite no sign of support from my side at all....

 

So as much as I understand the problem with understanding 4 ♠, passing was just crazy.

[Fluffy]

That's fine, but that wasn't the agreement here. You wouldn't just whip out a treatment common in your country on an unsuspecting partner and then shame her on BBF, would you?

 

I am not all over the world to tell you, but as Codo says the double = 4 spades might be mainstream in USA and/or other countries but it doesn't make it mainstream worldwide either. At least I know well enough to consider other options when there are no agreements.

 

What I am pretty sure its not mainstream anywhere is that double might have more than 4 spades, so even if south has never encountered someone who doubles without spades, he shouldn't pass a bid that assures him to play on a 4-2 fit, it is ridicoulous