Romney vs. Obama

[mike777]

Before I say anything, let me acknowledge that it was an excellent speech and that I was not offended by it. I saw the whole speech and I found it impressive rather than offensive. Please keep that in mind when you read my answer to your question:

 

Well yes, that is typically what leaders in Northern European countries do. They will say things like: "This is a fantastic night for our party." or "We are going to make this a better place.". But you will never, ever hear anything like "Switzerland is the greatest nation on Earth.". And "We will show the world." is absolutely out of the question. It is just not something we would do. In fact, if any politician would say something like that, he would be laughed at and drop 10% in the polls. People are simply to aware that "We could show the world, but why would the world be interested enough to look?".

 

The general emotion that lives in Northern Europe is not "We are the greatest nation". It is more like: "We live. We happen to live in Sweden, which is nice. If we would live in Germany that would probably be nice too.". Nationalism and pride only exist in sports. Outside sports the whole idea of "We are the best" (whoever "we" might be: the country, the company that we work for, our family) simply does not exist.

 

In America this "We are America and America is the best" is continuously reinforced. The extreme (from a European point of view) American nationalism is not exclusive for American leaders. You see it everywhere in American culture. You practically can't organize a spelling bee without the American flag standing on the stage and the Star Spangled Banner being played. In Europe, you might hear the national anthems on the national holidays and before sports matches between two countries the anthems of both teams will be played. Most people don't know the lyrics of their national anthems. (I studied in the USA and you bet that I know the lyrics of the American anthem... and I will not forget them.)

 

In the USA, everybody is continuously aware that they live in America, the greatest nation on Earth. (Whether this is actually true or not is irrelevant. The awareness is continuously there.) You can see the examples everywhere. After 9/11, "Take me out to the ball game" in the seventh inning stretch is replaced by "God bless America". Northern European cultures don't even have songs like that, let alone that they play them in the middle of a fun family event. Nobody will think in terms of "God bless Belgium". (If someone would say those words, Belgians would instinctively wonder "Why would He?".) This kind of nationalism doesn't exist here. Only in France, you might hear people say "Vive la France". In other European countries, that is simply not done.

 

American school kids pledge allegiance to the flag. In Europe that would be perceived as creepy. The idea would make people feel sick. In America it is normal. I can go on and on with examples of American nationalism that do not exist in Northern Europe.

 

Obama's speech was fine. It was meant for Americans and it should appeal to Americans. It did. But in Europe a speech like that would not work at all. It appeals to a sense of nationalism that we don't have and that we are uncomfortable with. This is something that Americans should keep in mind when they go outside their country (or speak to the world, rather than the USA). The American pride can be very offensive. Americans are unaware of that and that doesn't help them to achieve their goals.

 

Rik

 

 

interesting post thanks for putting it up.

 

 

Yes, there appears to be a huge difference between your European view and being American.

 

 

fwiw I strongly disagree with your last sentence but then that is the whole point of your post.

--

 

But in Europe a speech like that would not work at all. It appeals to a sense of nationalism that we don't have and that we are uncomfortable with. This is something that Americans should keep in mind when they go outside their country (or speak to the world, rather than the USA). The American pride can be very offensive.

 

 

 

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

 

 

----

 

 

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation, so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate, we can not consecrate, we can not hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth

[BunnyGo]

Did anyone do the maths on what % chance did Nate Silver give himself of getting all 50 states right? (i.e. if I say event A has a 70% chance and B has a 60% chance of happening, then I will get both "right" 42% of the time). If all 50 states were predicted by him with 95% confidence, that is still only 7.7% of happening. So 50/50 seems very lucky (or his model was underestimating his confidence intervals).

 

He gave this outcome (assuming FL goes to O) a 20% chance. So he hit the 1/5.

 

I don't know what odds he gave the correlations in the senate races.

[hrothgar]

For the first time in my life, I find myself supporting Herman Cain

 

(The yahoo is calling for a third party)

[nigel_k]

This is scary stuff for the rest of us:

 

"And together with your help and God’s grace we will continue our journey forward and remind the world just why it is that we live in the greatest nation on Earth."

 

To me this is unbelievably arrogant.

I'm pretty sure he meant this as aspirational, i.e. the future actions, choices and achievements of the US will demonstrate that they are the greatest nation on Earth. Not literally reminding people as in just saying "hey, don't forget we're the greatest and you're not".

[PassedOut]

I saw an interview with him today where he basically said "My methods were really flawed and I made a big mistake trusting Rasmussen"

 

Not often that you seem people admitting that...

Yeah, I found a writeup on that. Something like this is what I was remembering:

 

“You can make all the models you want, but they’re not going to tell you what voters are going to do.”

 

“The bottom line is that even though it did make the difference, I was only wrong on maybe three to four states, depending which way Florida goes,” he adds. “That’s still a pretty good batting average.”

[Vampyr]

Religion adds some extra beliefs, things like creationism. When those of religious conviction try to force those beliefs on us (or our children), for me it becomes a problem of religious conviction. Sure, I would object to teaching creationism even if those behind the advocacy were doing so for scientific reasons, but no one has yet found scientific support for creationism; some opinions cannot be separated from religion.

 

I don't understand this. You are saying that even it some scientific basis was found for creationism, you would still object to its being taught?

[blackshoe]

I think he's saying that there are parts of Creationism that cannot have a scientific basis, because they contradict knowledge that does have a scientific basis, and do so on the basis of faith only, without any evidence at all, other than the words written in the Bible.

[JLOGIC]

People still questioning nate silver? lol

[Trinidad]

I know the words to the Deutschlandlied... You don't hear the early stanza's too much any more, but it starts like this:

 

Deutschland, Deutschland über alles,

Über alles in der Welt,

Wenn es stets zu Schutz und Trutze

Brüderlich zusammenhält.

Von der Maas bis an die Memel,

Von der Etsch bis an den Belt,

Deutschland, Deutschland über alles,

Über alles in der Welt!

 

And don't think for a moment that folk's aren't think of these lyrics when the current German national anthem is sung... (The CDU tried to get the first stanza re-incorporated as recently as the 1980s)

I work in Germany. I think that you couldn't be more wrong here. Germany is the ultimate country without national pride... because they know what it can lead to. Germany has national shame, still 70 years after WW II.

 

Just because some politician has suggested to get the original lyrics back doesn't mean that "German folks" want that. That is like saying that folks in America (which includes you) know that women cannot get pregnant when they are raped since the body has mechanisms to shut it off. It is equally wrong.

 

Rik

[cherdano]

But just out of curiosity, has Morning Joe had any second thoughts?

I missed the part where he articulated his first thoughts.

[Zelandakh]

Just for some Nate balance, here and here are more detailed tables of predictions. In addition to Nate, Sam Wang, Drew Linzer, Josh Putnam and Markos Moulitsas all appear to have predicted the outcome correctly, albeit in a less high-profile way. Simon Jackman (Pollster) is also reported to have predicted 332. Clearly Nate is the big winner though and sales of his book are going through the roof.

 

As for being the greatest nation, I have found plenty of people online calling New Zealand or Canada the greatest nation in the world. But for giggles, I am going to include 3 excerpts from a speech last month. Question: who said it and is it offensive?

 

…the best country in the world…

…and let’s say it: with <snip name of Head of State>, the finest Head of State on earth.

I was trying to think of my favourite moment.

Was it telling President Hollande that no, we hadn’t cheated at the cycling, we didn’t have rounder wheels, it was just that we peddled faster than the French?

 

This is still the greatest country on earth. We showed that again this summer.

and

The job of this party … of this government … is to help to bring out the best in this country. Because at our best we’re unbeatable.

 

The point is that it is completely wrong to say that other countries do not do this too. This is simply normal in politics. Being offended about every country that had someone say their country was the best is like being offended at every opponent that opens a Weak 2 against you.

 

There are millions of people out there who love to bash America. I hear or see some anti-American sentiment pretty much every month. The thing is, there are many worse nations that could have the place of America in the world. Does anyone seriously believe the world will be a better or safer place if/when China becomes a dominant power? How about if Iran or North Korea was "in charge"? Sure, there are plenty of things to point at in America and cringe about - spending over $2 billion on an election campaign where nothing much changed would be one - but there are also reasons to be glad that a democratic super-power is there. Putting up with them thinking they are "the greatest", or at least feeling that they need to say it, is such a small price to pay.

[Vampyr]

I think he's saying that there are parts of Creationism that cannot have a scientific basis, because they contradict knowledge that does have a scientific basis, and do so on the basis of faith only, without any evidence at all, other than the words written in the Bible.

 

Well, TimG used the phrase "for scientific reasons"; what reasons could there be unless some evidence of creationism (oops, I mean Intelligent Design) came to light?

[Trinidad]

There are millions of people out there who love to bash America. I hear or see some anti-American sentiment pretty much every month.

I don't think you can call Wayne an America basher. He made an observation. I think that I made it sufficiently clear that I am far from an America basher. I just pointed out a cultural difference between Northern Europe (which to me means the Benelux, Germany, Switzerland, Scandinavia and Finland since they have similar cultural backgrounds) and the USA. I did not put a moral value on that difference.

 

Rik

[mike777]

I work in Germany. I think that you couldn't be more wrong here. Germany is the ultimate country without national pride... because they know what it can lead to. Germany has national shame, still 70 years after WW II.

 

Just because some politician has suggested to get the original lyrics back doesn't mean that "German folks" want that. That is like saying that folks in America (which includes you) know that women cannot get pregnant when they are raped since the body has mechanisms to shut it off. It is equally wrong.

 

Rik

 

 

I am surprised to hear Germany is the ultimate country without national pride...

 

 

According to a new study, Germans finally have fallen in love with their country and believe they should be proud of it.

 

http://www.infoniac.com/breaking/germans-feel-more-proud-of-being-germans.html

[Vampyr]

I don't think you can call Wayne an America basher. He made an observation. I think that I made it sufficiently clear that I am far from an America basher. I just pointed out a cultural difference between Northern Europe (which to me means the Benelux, Germany, Switzerland, Scandinavia and Finland since they have similar cultural backgrounds) and the USA. I did not put a moral value on that difference.

 

Just because he said "millions", it doesn't mean he included you and Wayne.

 

Thing to keep in mind on internet BBs: It's not all about me.

[Codo]

I am surprised to hear Germany is the ultimate country without national pride...

 

 

According to a new study, Germans finally have fallen in love with their country and believe they should be proud of it.

 

http://www.infoniac.com/breaking/germans-feel-more-proud-of-being-germans.html

 

I would strongly suggest to take everything word for word which is written on the internet.

 

This source is crap. F.E.: We still condem the Nazi times and there are a million times more visitors to the Holocaust memorials then to all old Nazi sides.

 

But besides this, our national pride did indeed increase dramatically during and because of the World Cup 2006 in Germany. During that event we learned to show our flag again- not just during a soccer game, but even in public. Shocking. Does this sound funny to an US citizen? To an Italian, French, Brit, whatever? Yes? Hmm, so maybe we do have big problems with signs of nationalism.

But yes, our nationalism did indeed increase- from below zero to somewhere near not measurable. ;)

That is no surprise: If you are at the low end of a scale, it is much easier to increase something then it is at the top.

[Zelandakh]

This source is crap. F.E.: We still condem the Nazi times and there are a million times more visitors to the Holocaust memorials then to all old Nazi sides.

It might have raised alrm bells for the previous poster when the very top story at the site reads "iPad cae that Turns into Bluetooth Keyboard". FWiiW I can confirm that practically every German I have ever met would not judge the Nazi regime to have been in any way ok. Indeed, I was watching the Real Madrid vs Dortmund game via a Canadian TV channel on Tuesday evening and was far more shocked by the racial stereotyping used by the (English) commentator than anything I have ever seen or heard in Germany.

 

What is true is that there is a sharp and disturbing increase of violence at football games in Germany, something which reminds me of England back in the day. The English violence was traced back to Fascist groups. So far there has been no (published) link found between such groups and the violence here although one must always be vigilant to prevent those with extreme views from restricting the freedoms of others or trying to undermine a society for this end.

[Vampyr]

The thing about America is that it is not just a country; it is an idea. Think of songs like Neil Diamond's Coming to America, West Side Story's America.

 

Going there is not like crossing the border from the Netherlands into Belgium. It's an ocean journey; it's a continent (sorry Canada and Mexico) -- you can get there from both sides. Many millions of immigrants went there with the realisation that they were never going back, nor were the friends and relatives they left behind ever going to visit them.

 

The "American Dream" is something people believe in, without irony. Simon and Garfunkel also had a song called America. In it there are a couple of people looking for America (which of course they are in). It's not just a place.

[barmar]

Obama's language was just normal political rhetoric. I'll bet if you go back through speeches by all presidents during the past half century you'll find similar expressions.

 

Why does it happen more in the US than in many other countries? One reason may be that we've been one of the major superpowers in the world for a century, so we've gotten in the habit of thinking of ourselves as the best (the President is often referred to as "the leader of the free world"). It may have gotten worse in recent years, because we see ourselves as a big target -- when there are many terrorist organizations shouting "Death to America", it's natural to bump up the nationalist pride as a defense mechanism. And don't forget all the foreigners trying to immigrate here -- despite our problems, we're still seen by many around the world as the "land of plenty" that they aspire to move to, and that gives us a feeling of self-importance.

 

Finally, I think being bombastic is just part of our national DNA.

[luke warm]

People still questioning nate silver? lol

not me, not ever again

[y66]

Until this thread started I had never heard of Nate Silver. As far as I know, Florida has not yet been officially called. but just out of curiosity, has Morning Joe had any second thoughts? I also had never heard of Morning Joe until recently.

 

Joe who?

[ArtK78]

Obama's language was just normal political rhetoric. I'll bet if you go back through speeches by all presidents during the past half century you'll find similar expressions.

 

Why does it happen more in the US than in many other countries? One reason may be that we've been one of the major superpowers in the world for a century, so we've gotten in the habit of thinking of ourselves as the best (the President is often referred to as "the leader of the free world"). It may have gotten worse in recent years, because we see ourselves as a big target -- when there are many terrorist organizations shouting "Death to America", it's natural to bump up the nationalist pride as a defense mechanism. And don't forget all the foreigners trying to immigrate here -- despite our problems, we're still seen by many around the world as the "land of plenty" that they aspire to move to, and that gives us a feeling of self-importance.

 

Finally, I think being bombastic is just part of our national DNA.

And, if that is not enough, don't forget 9/11.

[ArtK78]

Joe who?

Joe Scarborough, former Republican Congressman from the panhandle of Florida. He is the host of Morning Joe on MSNBC. A Republican as the host of a show on MSNBC? Yes. It is a very good show.

[barmar]

And, if that is not enough, don't forget 9/11.

That's what I was alluding to when I mentioned the "Death to America" attitude in recent years.

[phil_20686]

So I was wrong about the intrade markets: they were manipulated: http://rajivsethi.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/prediction-market-manipulation-case.html

 

Re National Pride, I don't think it is the rhetoric so much as the fact that american's seem to genuinely believe the rhetoric. In the UK, its like a nice thing to say when your country is doing well at sport or something, but its not really something to get worked up about.

 

Take flag burning as an example. You get pretty worked up about that in the US, in the UK when there were protests in the UK about Iraq war, there was burning of the UK flag in the street, and so some conservative MP's started a motion to make flag burning illegal, it got a total of seventeen votes in a parliment of roughly 600 MP's.

 

I remember when some ex-POW's burned a rising sun flag at a state visit by a Japanese foreign minister, right in front of the Queen and the Japanese delegation, and they didn't even get charged with breach of the peace, which is the normal thing Police do when they just want to hold you for a few hours to prevent you making a scene.

 

The other thing of course, is that most europeans will laugh in your face if you suggest america is genuinely the best nation on earth. Richest, sure. But we cannot imagine a society without universal healthcare, or the abysmal state of your education that creates a virtually certainty of poverty in some districts. If you put america next to the core european countries (france, germany, uk, austria, finland sweden norway switzerland, and possibly add in european-model states like australia and new zealand)

 

America would be last in incarceration rates, last in gun crime, last in other violent crime, last in health coverage, last in equality, last in life expectancy, and on some measures, last on education standards.

 

On the other hand, you are significantly richer, but that might well just be an artefact of the dollar's status as a reserve currency.