Romney vs. Obama

[kenberg]

I guess I am a little surprised this sounds offensive. Do other leaders, after they have won election as president or prime minister, say something like "Gee, thanks. Of course you can't expect much from me, and my country is really second rate, but I do thank you"?

 

It seemed to me an enthusiastic speech, but I really do not think I would be offended if I were from another country. I can't say for sure, of course, but I doubt it.

[dwar0123]

This is scary stuff for the rest of us:

 

"And together with your help and God’s grace we will continue our journey forward and remind the world just why it is that we live in the greatest nation on Earth."

 

To me this is unbelievably arrogant.

I always assumed every countries leaders called their own country the greatest. Perhaps your perception is biased by the uncomfortable belief that this may be a little more true here than for most other leaders.

[Cascade]

I guess I am a little surprised this sounds offensive. Do other leaders, after they have won election as president or prime minister, say something like "Gee, thanks. Of course you can't expect much from me, and my country is really second rate, but I do thank you"?

 

It seemed to me an enthusiastic speech, but I really do not think I would be offended if I were from another country. I can't say for sure, of course, but I doubt it.

 

 

Don't get me wrong but I think there are a lot of good things about Obama.

 

However he didn't just say that he believed that his country was the best in the world. He said "we will ... remind the world ...". Yes I think this is offensive. I think there are many people in the world, including some in the US, who do not think that the US has such a good foreign policy. I imagine there are millions of people who live in fear of those policies. I doubt that these people would be impressed to know that the US President wants to remind them that the US is the greatest country in the world.

 

He could say a whole lot of positive things, and he did, without rubbing into the rest of the world how great he thinks the US is. I don't think I have ever heard a leader from another country make such a claim.

 

I think it is particularly insensitive when many people live in real fear of US led or supported miltary offensives.

[Cascade]

I always assumed every countries leaders called their own country the greatest. Perhaps your perception is biased by the uncomfortable belief that this may be a little more true here than for most other leaders.

 

lol

[Scarabin]

Cascade has an interesting point. I was not offended by Obama's acceptance speech but then I like America and find Obama, if anything, overly sensitive to outsiders feelings.

 

That said I must admit to feeling saturated by the election coverage and found myself thinking wryly "this is what you want to export to the Middle East".

 

By the way, if you say I should just watch other countries' news, I did, it does not help.

[hrothgar]

Don't get me wrong but I think there are a lot of good things about Obama.

 

However he didn't just say that he believed that his country was the best in the world. He said "we will ... remind the world ...". Yes I think this is offensive. I think there are many people in the world, including some in the US, who do not think that the US has such a good foreign policy. I imagine there are millions of people who live in fear of those policies. I doubt that these people would be impressed to know that the US President wants to remind them that the US is the greatest country in the world.

 

He could say a whole lot of positive things, and he did, without rubbing into the rest of the world how great he thinks the US is. I don't think I have ever heard a leader from another country make such a claim.

 

I think it is particularly insensitive when many people live in real fear of US led or supported miltary offensives.

 

Here's the thing...

 

Part of being President means following silly little rituals like insisting that America is the greatest country the world has ever known.

Yes, its ridiculous. How this is what the hoi poi demand, and if you don't follow their silly little rituals you don't win Ohio.

 

So, feel free to vent, but please recognize that it doesn't amount to a hill of beans...

[lalldonn]

Wayne it seems to me you are reading into it something that isn't there. But to each his own. If anything I would think it's more offensive that he said "By God's grace" than the part you are offended by (to which what Richard just said in the last post also applies anyway).

[Cascade]

Here's the thing...

 

Part of being President means following silly little rituals like insisting that America is the greatest country the world has ever known.

Yes, its ridiculous. How this is what the hoi poi demand, and if you don't follow their silly little rituals you don't win Ohio.

 

So, feel free to vent, but please recognize that it doesn't amount to a hill of beans...

 

Seems a pity if this is really the game you have to play to get the job of President.

[kenberg]

If I wanted to pick a bit, perhaps it would have been wherte he was speaking of the kid who might want to be a scientist or, even, a president\. Hoe about wanting to be a president or, even, a scientist?

 

More seriously, he did work in something about American Exceptionalism. I would have expected that to be more grating than "greatest country in the world' which I think, agreeing with Richard here, is just the blah blah politicians must say. Exceptionalism always, for me, carries some message that we are exampt frm consequences of our foolishness. The Lord watches over us. That sort of thing. If all that is meant is that we are the greatest country in the world, just like all the other greatest countries in the world, then ok, But it comes across differently to me and I much prefer we drop it.

 

 

But for me, this is a quibble. I though he laid out some visions, laid out some problems, and spoke to some real beliefs that I do hold. My fathr did come here with nothing, really nothing. If you have nothing, this seems to be a place people like to come. And it often seems to work out pretty well for them. That doesn't mean we have to go on about exceptionalism, but there is something to be said for recognizing a good thing when we see it.

 

 

The guy had a tough campaign. Let him enthuse a bit.

[hrothgar]

Seems a pity if this is really the game you have to play to get the job of President.

 

Seems a pity that we all don't get free ponies...

 

More seriously, look at Luke Warm's posts regarding American exceptionalism.

There are plenty of people in the US who agree with him.

 

If they can be bought off with some meaningless platitudes, politicians are going to do so (even if it means cheesing off some random Kiwi)

[PassedOut]

I'm interested in how the republicans react to the election because I think it would be good for the country to have a sensible republican alternative on the national level. Saw this from Iowan Steve Deace: GOP needs to embrace the base

 

Republicans could not overcome a Democrat base energized to vote for Obama. As a result, Republicans saw their majority in the Iowa House diminished, and they failed to capture a majority in the Iowa Senate that was thought to be a sure thing just 48 hours ago.

 

On Election Day I watched at least six hours of coverage on MSNBC to find out what the other side of the aisle thinks. Never once were the pro-Obama analysts wringing their hands about independents or swing voters like the Karl Roves of the GOP say are required for victory. Exit polls showed Romney won independents in crucial battleground states like Ohio and Virginia that he ended up losing anyway.

 

Instead, the other side was focused on the principles that led them to support Obama in the 2008 primary and then turning out the base — which Obama did. Remember all those "skewed" mainstream media polls we conservatives were told were frauds by Rove and his acolytes? Remember how we were told there was no way Obama could do again what he did in 2008, and the Obama coalition was falling apart? It turns out the mainstream polls were all true and Nate Silver at The New York Times knows what he is doing.

 

Obama won by re-energizing his base. The CNN exit polls showed registered Democrats turned out in greater numbers than registered Republicans in battlegrounds Ohio and Florida.

Deace seems to assume that there is a large enough base of far right voters to contest a national election. I hope more sensible heads prevail.

[blackshoe]

i do believe a candidate can get a lot of support by understanding and articulating a plan that caps spending in some way, maybe as a % of gdp, on *all* programs, while selling to the people a plan to use technology more and people less in the military... this is actually happening now, and the idea should be preempted by conservatives as their own

 

... however, for those non-criminal immigrants already in our country, none will be rounded up and sent home... all who wish to stay and become american citizens will have the right and opportunity to do so, either thru existing citizenship avenues or military service"

If technology were the be-all, end-all answer to the cost of our military, we could disband all services except the Air Force, and just let them drop bombs on anybody we don't like. That said, it may be that there are technologies available now that could be used to "streamline" the military and reduce the defense budget, but it's not nearly as simple as "technology will fix it, we don't need the troops".

 

Military service is an existing citizenship avenue.

[mike777]

found this interesting..

 

 

Romney got the same % of the white vote as BUSH the first. Bush the first got 400 elec. votes..in 1988...romney lost easily...

 

 

426-111 votes.

 

If Romney just got the paltry Hispanic vote that McCain got, around 35%....

 

If nothing else I hope Republicans learn to be more than the party of anti abortion and cut the deficit and white males.

[TimG]

To me this is unbelievably arrogant.

I think so too, embarrassingly so. Every candidate does it, but it would be nice if once elected to a second term, Obama could cut back on the rhetoric.

 

The "God bless America" part is also annoying to me. But again, every candidate does it.

[kenberg]

Until this thread started I had never heard of Nate Silver. As far as I know, Florida has not yet been officially called. but just out of curiosity, has Morning Joe had any second thoughts? I also had never heard of Morning Joe until recently.

[PassedOut]

Until this thread started I had never heard of Nate Silver. As far as I know, Florida has not yet been officially called. but just out of curiosity, has Morning Joe had any second thoughts? I also had never heard of Morning Joe until recently.

They are still counting absentee ballots in Miami-Dade. Results might be ready tonight.

 

Latest count: O -- 4,143,534 R -- 4,096,439

[MrAce]

Some preelection predictions.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/06/jon-stewart-pundits-election-predictions_n_2081639.html

[gwnn]

Did anyone do the maths on what % chance did Nate Silver give himself of getting all 50 states right? (i.e. if I say event A has a 70% chance and B has a 60% chance of happening, then I will get both "right" 42% of the time). If all 50 states were predicted by him with 95% confidence, that is still only 7.7% of happening. So 50/50 seems very lucky (or his model was underestimating his confidence intervals).

[hrothgar]

Did anyone do the maths on what % chance did Nate Silver give himself of getting all 50 states right? (i.e. if I say event A has a 70% chance and B has a 60% chance of happening, then I will get both "right" 42% of the time). If all 50 states were predicted by him with 95% confidence, that is still only 7.7% of happening. So 50/50 seems very lucky (or his model was underestimating his confidence intervals).

 

What were the odds that Silver was going to get Texas wrong?

 

In reality, there were only six or so states in play.

Silver did a phenomenal job. The actual result is probably his mode result which is very impressive.

However, this 50 out of 50 thing is over stated.

[kenberg]

They are still counting absentee ballots in Miami-Dade. Results might be ready tonight.

 

Latest count: O -- 4,143,534 R -- 4,096,439

 

Has the hanging chad vote come in yet? I think hanging chads usually go Democratic.

[MickyB]

Did anyone do the maths on what % chance did Nate Silver give himself of getting all 50 states right? (i.e. if I say event A has a 70% chance and B has a 60% chance of happening, then I will get both "right" 42% of the time). If all 50 states were predicted by him with 95% confidence, that is still only 7.7% of happening. So 50/50 seems very lucky (or his model was underestimating his confidence intervals).

 

332 was 20%, 303 was 16%. Obviously that assumes that the results in state A and the results in state B aren't completely independent.

[PassedOut]

In reality, there were only six or so states in play.

Silver did a phenomenal job. The actual result is probably his mode result which is very impressive.

However, this 50 out of 50 thing is over stated.

That reminds me. The guy who runs UnskewedPolls.com reduced his prediction from 311 EV for Romney on Thursday to 275 EV by election day. Then he argued today that his results weren't that much worse than Nate's: "I only missed four states -- Colorado, Ohio, Virginia, and Florida."

:D

[Trinidad]

It seemed to me an enthusiastic speech, but I really do not think I would be offended if I were from another country. I can't say for sure, of course, but I doubt it.

Before I say anything, let me acknowledge that it was an excellent speech and that I was not offended by it. I saw the whole speech and I found it impressive rather than offensive. Please keep that in mind when you read my answer to your question:

I guess I am a little surprised this sounds offensive. Do other leaders, after they have won election as president or prime minister, say something like "Gee, thanks. Of course you can't expect much from me, and my country is really second rate, but I do thank you"?

Well yes, that is typically what leaders in Northern European countries do. They will say things like: "This is a fantastic night for our party." or "We are going to make this a better place.". But you will never, ever hear anything like "Switzerland is the greatest nation on Earth.". And "We will show the world." is absolutely out of the question. It is just not something we would do. In fact, if any politician would say something like that, he would be laughed at and drop 10% in the polls. People are simply to aware that "We could show the world, but why would the world be interested enough to look?".

 

The general emotion that lives in Northern Europe is not "We are the greatest nation". It is more like: "We live. We happen to live in Sweden, which is nice. If we would live in Germany that would probably be nice too.". Nationalism and pride only exist in sports. Outside sports the whole idea of "We are the best" (whoever "we" might be: the country, the company that we work for, our family) simply does not exist.

 

In America this "We are America and America is the best" is continuously reinforced. The extreme (from a European point of view) American nationalism is not exclusive for American leaders. You see it everywhere in American culture. You practically can't organize a spelling bee without the American flag standing on the stage and the Star Spangled Banner being played. In Europe, you might hear the national anthems on the national holidays and before sports matches between two countries the anthems of both teams will be played. Most people don't know the lyrics of their national anthems. (I studied in the USA and you bet that I know the lyrics of the American anthem... and I will not forget them.)

 

In the USA, everybody is continuously aware that they live in America, the greatest nation on Earth. (Whether this is actually true or not is irrelevant. The awareness is continuously there.) You can see the examples everywhere. After 9/11, "Take me out to the ball game" in the seventh inning stretch is replaced by "God bless America". Northern European cultures don't even have songs like that, let alone that they play them in the middle of a fun family event. Nobody will think in terms of "God bless Belgium". (If someone would say those words, Belgians would instinctively wonder "Why would He?".) This kind of nationalism doesn't exist here. Only in France, you might hear people say "Vive la France". In other European countries, that is simply not done.

 

American school kids pledge allegiance to the flag. In Europe that would be perceived as creepy. The idea would make people feel sick. In America it is normal. I can go on and on with examples of American nationalism that do not exist in Northern Europe.

 

Obama's speech was fine. It was meant for Americans and it should appeal to Americans. It did. But in Europe a speech like that would not work at all. It appeals to a sense of nationalism that we don't have and that we are uncomfortable with. This is something that Americans should keep in mind when they go outside their country (or speak to the world, rather than the USA). The American pride can be very offensive. Americans are unaware of that and that doesn't help them to achieve their goals.

 

Rik

[hrothgar]

That reminds me. The guy who runs UnskewedPolls.com reduced his prediction from 311 EV for Romney on Thursday to 275 EV by election day. Then he argued today that his results weren't that much worse than Nate's: "I only missed four states -- Colorado, Ohio, Virginia, and Florida."

:D

 

I saw an interview with him today where he basically said "My methods were really flawed and I made a big mistake trusting Rasmussen"

 

Not often that you seem people admitting that...

[hrothgar]

In America this "We are America and America is the best" is continuously reinforced. The extreme (from a European point of view) American nationalism is not exclusive for American leaders. You see it everywhere in American culture. You practically can't organize a spelling bee without the American flag standing on the stage and the Star Spangled Banner being played. In Europe, you might hear the national anthems on the national holidays and before sports matches between two countries the anthems of both teams will be played. Most people don't know the lyrics of their national anthems. (I studied in the USA and you bet that I know the lyrics of the American anthem... and I will not forget them.)

 

I know the words to the Deutschlandlied... You don't hear the early stanza's too much any more, but it starts like this:

 

Deutschland, Deutschland über alles,

Über alles in der Welt,

Wenn es stets zu Schutz und Trutze

Brüderlich zusammenhält.

Von der Maas bis an die Memel,

Von der Etsch bis an den Belt,

Deutschland, Deutschland über alles,

Über alles in der Welt!

 

And don't think for a moment that folk's aren't think of these lyrics when the current German national anthem is sung... (The CDU tried to get the first stanza re-incorporated as recently as the 1980s)