Tricky hand for responder

[dkham]

Matchpoints, weak NT and four card majors, and you're faced with a problem:

 

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Assuming you bid something on the first round (1♠, 1NT or 2♣) then partner rather unhelpfully rebids 2♥, showing six of them and a minimum hand. What do you do now?

 

When it comes to responder's rebid we've not got any special conventions here (e.g. 2NT shows minors), though I'd be interested if anyone does.

[MrAce]

Pass (over 2♥ of course, i would respond 1♠ by the way. )

[aguahombre]

Oops. I read the "Assuming you bid something" part of the OP. Meant to pass the 2H rebid after responding 1S, not pass the first time.

[dkham]

Thanks for the votes. Here's what actually happened, comments welcome.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=s7654hdaj53ckjt74&w=sq32hqt54dt94caq5&n=sakha98763dk76c92&e=sjt98hkj2dq82c863&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1hp1sp2hp2np3dppp&p=c6]399|300[/hv]

 

South did reply 1♠, but then couldn't face passing 2♥ so tried 2NT. I was sitting North, and took this as invitational. I accepted the invite, but since we play four card majors I wanted to show my sixth heart and give partner a choice of 3NT and 4♥. Thus I improvised a 3♦ bid, which to my surprise partner passed.

 

3♦ made exactly, which felt like we'd done well, but was it actually a good result?

 

I should have made ten or even eleven tricks in diamonds.

Also I think 2♥ does make, losing just two clubs and three hearts (though other tables showed 2♥-1, so maybe I'm wrong?)

Finally 2NT makes easily, and in fact unless the defence lead hearts you'll make at least nine tricks.

[mr1303]

This shows why rebidding your suit after a 1 level response should show a minimum of 6, regardless of whether you play 4 or 5 card majors.

[Cyberyeti]

This shows why rebidding your suit after a 1 level response should show a minimum of 6, regardless of whether you play 4 or 5 card majors.

Disagree, rebidding it over the lowest 1 level response should guarantee 6, but if you're 1453, what are you going to bid over 1♦-1♠ other than 2♦ if 1N is not in range and you're not good enough for 2♥ ?

 

We would respond 1♠ (on the "don't bid 2♣ unless you're good enough to show your spades over 2♥" principle).

 

I'd pass 2♥ as we're probably more free with our 3♥ bids than most people, and partner is known to have at least 6.

 

I'd lead the 10♦ v 2N, but switch to a heart on winning the first club so would hold it to 2. (if you've led a diamond, unless dummy plays the K (stupid if you had Q109x), ducking the first club gives declarer entry problems and I think also holds him to 8).

 

I'm struggling to see how you failed to make 10 tricks in diamonds.

[Fluffy]

South did reply 1♠, but then couldn't face passing 2♥ so tried 2NT.

This kind of has the same logic as bidding 4♣ when 3♣X comes back to you because you can't face to play doubled.

[cargobeep]

With the exception of 2♠ (and perhaps 2 notrump), any bid made after 2♥ would show an invitational hand.

 

Sometimes you just gotta stay in a contract that might make, or it might not. Continuing on could be disasterous.

 

Even if West and East refuses to lead clubs, 2♥ just needs a diamond to the jack to make and good play in ♥.

[kenrexford]

The poll lacks one very good option: "1NT, then bid 2♠"

 

This is another good time to use what I call the Not So Impossible 2♠ auction (easier for some to stomach if playing Flannery).

 

Responder starts with 1NT forcing, Whatever Opener does (unless Opener bids 2♦ as 4+, which I prefer), he later bids 2♠, showing four spades, not invitational values, with long clubs and very short hearts (stiff or void), often with a diamond fragment.

 

The auction would be:

 

1♥-1NT

2♥-2♠

3♣

 

3♣ by South seems good.

 

If LHO leads a spade, win, cash heart Ace, ruff a heart, spade to King, ruff a heart, ruff a spade, top two diamonds (ending in Dummy), ruff a heart. Spade toward Dummy then establishes the 10th trick. If greedy, however, you can get the 11th by finessing diamonds successfully and hoping for 3-3 split.

 

If LHO leads a heart, do basically the same thing.

 

If LHO leads a diamond, do basically the same thing, but perhaps take advantage of the diamond gainer.

 

If LHO leads club Ace and out, pull trumps and concede the spade loser for 11 tricks in the end.

 

Strangely, Opener also might pass 2♠ successfully.

 

If a spade lead, win, heart Ace, ruff heart, diamond to King, ruff heart, spade to other top spade, finesse diamond Jack, cash diamond, concede remainder, for 8 tricks.

 

If a diamond lead, win three diamonds, Ace of Hearts, ruff a heart, spade to King, ruff a heart, win the other spade, and concede rest, for 8 tricks.

 

If a heart lead, basically same thing.

 

A club lead gives another free trick.

[aguahombre]

1NT, then 2S after a 2h rebid, has a useful purpose. And it's purpose would involve game invitation, and 2 (or 3) cards in the heart suit....depending on the style of your openings and responses.

 

Only if playing Flannery where 1H will never be opened on a minimum 4-6 hand would Ken's sequence possibly be useful. More likely, using that sequence with this hand will propel us to a higher level, still without a fit.

[MrAce]

1NT, then 2S after a 2h rebid, has a useful purpose. And it's purpose would involve game invitation, and 2 (or 3) cards in the heart suit....depending on the style of your openings and responses.

 

Only if playing Flannery where 1H will never be opened on a minimum 4-6 hand would Ken's sequence possibly be useful. More likely, using that sequence with this hand will propel us to a higher level, still without a fit.

 

I think there are also a lot of people who plays it as showing minors and not a weak hand, but less than 2/1 gf values.

[bigbenvic]

Playing four card majors your 2♥ bid shows 6! How can you have 5?

If you are 5-4 then you bid the 2nd suit (or raise ♠ and if you are 5332 then you are balanced and can rebid 1NT. If you are 5332 and minimum opening hand, open 1NT, you're balanced, fit the range and all you need is to have a good scramble when the X comes!

 

So I'd bid 1♠ and apologise to pards for my dummy when putting it down when he plays 2♥.

[the hog]

1S and pass is automatic. There is nothing further to think about on this hand.

[rmnka447]

1 ♠ and then pass. You owe pard a response just in case he holds a moose even though you know the hand is a misfit. Your hand isn't good enough for a 2 level response.

 

After the 2 ♥ rebid, there's nothing to do with this misfit except get out of the auction as quickly and as low as possible. Although it may not be ideal, partner's 6 card suit may give him a play -- don't get stuck trying to rescue the hand to a better spot and just digging yourself into a deeper hole.

[Zelandakh]

1S and pass is automatic. There is nothing further to think about on this hand.

If you were to play a system where a 1♠ response was limited to a maximum of 9hcp and the specific sequence 1♥ - 1♠; 2♥ - 2NT was a request to takeout into a minor with 40(45) shape, would you be tempted? Can you think of a better use for 2NT in such a system?

[aguahombre]

If you were to play a system where a 1♠ response was limited to a maximum of 9hcp and the specific sequence 1♥ - 1♠; 2♥ - 2NT was a request to takeout into a minor with 40(45) shape, would you be tempted? Can you think of a better use for 2NT in such a system?

:rolleyes: If the 1S response were limited as you state, we probably would have a hard time deciding whether any use of 2nt was better or worse than another. Any suggestion of a different strain over 2H would be suicidal unless 2♠.

[Finch]

If you were to play a system where a 1♠ response was limited to a maximum of 9hcp and the specific sequence 1♥ - 1♠; 2♥ - 2NT was a request to takeout into a minor with 40(45) shape, would you be tempted? Can you think of a better use for 2NT in such a system?

 

I don't play either 1H-1S-2H-2NT as natural (or rather a 1-level response showing spades). The logic is that if you have invitational type values (say a good 10 to a bad 12 given our opening style) then either you don't have any sort of heart fit, in which case 2NT is going to play really badly so you might as well pass 2H, or you do have some sort of heart fit in which case you might as well play in 3H as 2NT. So we play(ed) 2NT as (at least) invitational and forcing. Opener can bid 3m with shortage and interest, 3H with a minimum and no interest, 3S with singleton spade and a good hand, 3NT balanced max contract suggestion.

 

1H - a bid showing a forcing NT - 2H similarly: 2S is invitational with at least some heart support, 2NT is both minors.

[kenrexford]

In Larry Cohen's analysis for the Instant Matchpoint game, he suggested responding 1NT to a 1♥ opening with ♠10 8 6 3 ♥ 10 ♦ 9 8 ♣ A Q 6 5 4 2. That was my bid at the table. We strangely ended up in 2♠, making +110 with a 4-2 "fit," for 84 MP.

 

None of this proves anything, and none of this is relevant to this exact problem. I just mention it because I stumbled across this deal today and this reminded me of this discussion.

[Zelandakh]

In Larry Cohen's analysis for the Instant Matchpoint game, he suggested responding 1NT to a 1♥ opening with ♠10 8 6 3 ♥ 10 ♦ 9 8 ♣ A Q 6 5 4 2. That was my bid at the table. We strangely ended up in 2♠, making +110 with a 4-2 "fit," for 84 MP.

I respond 1NT to 1♥ with this too but in my case it shows 4+ spades and less than 10 points. Hence my theoretical question does actually have some basis - my auction starts 1♥ - 1NT; 2♥ and now I cannot think of any meaning for 2NT except the minors. But if you are not bidding it with this hand then that meaning is pretty worthless too. Sadly I doubt I could match Ken's 2♠ result in any system.

[CSGibson]

Disagree, rebidding it over the lowest 1 level response should guarantee 6, but if you're 1453, what are you going to bid over 1♦-1♠ other than 2♦ if 1N is not in range and you're not good enough for 2♥ ?

 

 

 

I frequently rebid 2♣ on the hand. I have done so without large disasters, and I think a large part of thtat is because my preferred style is to bid my longest suit first in the minors, so that partner will take me back to diamonds with equal length, rather than letting me rot in clubs. Partner is also aware of my bidding proclivities in that situation, and takes it into account.

[Zelandakh]

Partner is also aware of my bidding proclivities in that situation, and alerts it so that the opponentstakes it into account.

FYP.

[CSGibson]

FYP.

 

No alert. 3 card minors are considered natural in the ACBL, so, in fact, you messed up my post. Don't ever do it again.

[Zelandakh]

Natural bids are alertable in the ACBL if they have a highly unusual or unexpected meaning, at least according to my understanding. I suspect this would be regarded as highly unusual for the majority of club players.

[CSGibson]

Natural bids are alertable in the ACBL if they have a highly unusual or unexpected meaning, at least according to my understanding. I suspect this would be regarded as highly unusual for the majority of club players.

 

This does not have a conventional meaning. Its a non-forcing natural bid. And, in the ACBL, 2C is frequently used as a non-forcing natural bid with only 3 cards. I think you are wrong, but I invite you to take it to a vote in the laws section if you want.

[helene_t]

How can 2♥ show six over a 2♣ response? You have to bid something with a Flannery hand.

 

Of course it shows six over a 1-level response. Not as a general principle, though. After 1♦-1♠ you can rebid 2♣ on a 3-card suit* but after 1♣-1♠ you may be stuck.

 

*I do that also but I am not sure it is actually a good idea. Probably it should depend on the quality of the diamonds. Anyway, playing strong notrump you can also rebid 1NT with a singleton in partner's suit.