inv raise of overcall

[dboxley]

[hv=pc=n&s=sq64h974dak7ca732&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1s2h2s]133|200[/hv]

 

Does anyone play a double here as an invitational raise instead of responsive? Any other way of making inv raise?

[gnasher]

I play 2NT as an invitational+ raise.

[the hog]

I also play 2NT as an invit raise.

[aguahombre]

Does the double have to be "instead of" responsive?

 

We agree that 2NT is not really useful as a natural bid, here. But, it might be used for more extreme minor-suit distribution than a responsive double ---which then might include a heart invite.

 

2NT as an invite raise seems to be gaining popularity, but we still use the double for "double duty", to get the distinctions about the minors in.

[dboxley]

Does the double have to be "instead of" responsive?

 

We agree that 2NT is not really useful as a natural bid, here. But, it might be used for more extreme minor-suit distribution than a responsive double ---which then might include a heart invite.

 

2NT as an invite raise seems to be gaining popularity, but we still use the double for "double duty", to get the distinctions about the minors in.

 

I like this treatment, would it still apply if the overcall were in a minor? How about:

 

1M 2C 2M ?

 

It seems now that the responsive dbl would not work so well as a 2-way bid but if the overcall were in diamonds then it would be fine (as long as doubler has OM). Hmm..., the more I think about this the more problems come to mind. Do you have any agreements how the auction would proceed? How does overcaller allow for all possibilities, say if he has one of the unbid suits with a minimum overcall? Maybe the straightforward 2NT as a limit raise + is more workable. Please advise.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Isn't this a case for Good/bad 2NT ?

[wank]

yes some people do. obv it's a matter of judgment if you consider the loss of the t/o X to be too high a price to pay.

[dake50]

Yes, 2NT inv raise.

But I'd shoot 4H. Likely make and chances they 4S-X.

Does partner often make 7-losers 2H overcall?

Even 7-losers with DQ or CKJ looks a good try.

[dboxley]

Yes, 2NT inv raise.

But I'd shoot 4H. Likely make and chances they 4S-X.

Does partner often make 7-losers 2H overcall?

Even 7-losers with DQ or CKJ looks a good try.

 

Yes, partner frequently makes 7 loser overcalls at the 2 level, sometimes even 8 non vul

 

xx AQJTxx xxx Qx

[aguahombre]

I like this treatment, would it still apply if the overcall were in a minor? How about:

 

1M 2C 2M ?

 

We don't apply the "either/or double" when the overcall is a minor. 2NT is still freakish for the other suits, however...and the double is just garden-variety responsive with competitive values. 3M seems ok with a great hand for partner's minor ---can't imagine not being content to play the 4-level when inviting five.

 

On the given auction: (1S) 2H (2S) ?...good/bad ---for one minor or the other---doesn't seem to work well. The 2H bidder can't handle it, when (say) she would want to raise clubs but not diamonds...and when they bid 3S, she is still in the dark.

[xbrit66]

With 5 controls, surely 4 hearts is the call. Suppose partner has AKxxxx and not much else, then game looks like a good shot. If opponents bid 4S, you double. Partner has to have shape if the opponents are bidding for real.

[dake50]

Yes, partner frequently makes 7 loser overcalls at the 2 level, sometimes even 8 non vul

 

xx AQJTxx xxx Qx

 

*** Unfortunate. CQ doesn't win so CA to discard D-3rd

and you lose HK + 2x Spades.

Unfortunate. CQ not DQ with C-single.

Unfortunate. Not S-single.

With hyper-agressive overcalls forcing hyper-conservative advances,

what does advancer need to go game? After a 2NT invite gets some

non-maximum rebid, what to still go 4H?

Not 3-support with 3 sure tricks as shown, what more?

I see this advancer hand as just short of a slam try because 3343

is such an underplaying shape.

Put SQ as H:Qxx and D:AK-5th: S:xx H:Qxx D:AKxxx C:Axx, is that close to a slam try?

I assume that overrides overcaller's minimum rebid - still to 4H.

[PhilKing]

Fwiw I am bidding 2NT then 3NT to offer a choice of games in case partner has ♠Jx ♥AKJxxx ♦xxx ♣xx or other similar monster overcalls.

 

When partner overcalls a minor and they raise, it is better to reverse the meaning of 2NT and raise (raise = inv), the main reason being that we may need to play 3NT by partner when we have a constructive raise.

[dboxley]

Yes, partner frequently makes 7 loser overcalls at the 2 level, sometimes even 8 non vul

 

xx AQJTxx xxx Qx

 

*** Unfortunate. CQ doesn't win so CA to discard D-3rd

and you lose HK + 2x Spades.

Unfortunate. CQ not DQ with C-single.

Unfortunate. Not S-single.

With hyper-agressive overcalls forcing hyper-conservative advances,

what does advancer need to go game? After a 2NT invite gets some

non-maximum rebid, what to still go 4H?

Not 3-support with 3 sure tricks as shown, what more?

I see this advancer hand as just short of a slam try because 3343

is such an underplaying shape.

Put SQ as H:Qxx and D:AK-5th: S:xx H:Qxx D:AKxxx C:Axx, is that close to a slam try?

I assume that overrides overcaller's minimum rebid - still to 4H.

 

That's 4, possibly 5 or 6 cover cards (if the diamonds can be set up) and would certainly be worth a 3S bid, but I don't see how you could make an intelligent slam try asking for a diamond fit. I would settle for 4H, the only reason for 3S instead of a direct 4H is to let pd know that this is not a preemptive bid.

[the hog]

I see this advancer hand as just short of a slam try because 3343

 

 

Beyond words.

[dake50]

Beyond words. -- The hog

 

*** Could 2H overcall be S- H:AKQxxx D;xxx C:KQxx?

I want to slam that one. Don't you??

[benlessard]

When partner overcalls a minor and they raise, it is better to reverse the meaning of 2NT and raise (raise = inv), the main reason being that we may need to play 3NT by partner when we have a constructive raise.

 

I strongly disagree.

 

(1H)--2D--(2H)--??

if you bid 2Nt with a competitive raise it allow the opps to double to suggest penalty or to make a game try with 3m. While if you bid 3D directly your putting him on the spot right now and its safer for you.

[aguahombre]

Unless we are worried about going past 3D when we are inviting 5D, we don't need either of the two bids to show an invite. If that is our concern, then maybe we should just bid 3D anyway. I guess this depends on the quality of our 2m overcalls.

[dboxley]

Unless we are worried about going past 3D when we are inviting 5D, we don't need either of the two bids to show an invite. If that is our concern, then maybe we should just bid 3D anyway. I guess this depends on the quality of our 2m overcalls.

 

 

There might be another reason to make a limit raise+, to give partner an idea of what is going on...

[aguahombre]

There might be another reason to make a limit raise+, to give partner an idea of what is going on...

Perhaps, I didn't say it clearly. With enough playing strength to invite game in the minor after a 2m overcall, I am willing to make a bid above 3m ---like 3 of their suit.

 

Ten-counts with 3-card support don't measure up to L+, IMO.

 

This would leave 2NT for another purpose, like extreme distribution in the other two suits.

[phil_20686]

I play 2N as a invitational+raise in hearts.

 

I see this as easily strong enough to raise to 4H, but I would start with 2N so that partner can double 4S appropriately. It is easier for him to dble after

1S 2H 2S 2N

4S

 

Than after

1S 2H 2S 4H

4S.

 

I think if you arent raising to game with this hand you are overcalling 2H too liberally.

 

I like to play dble as a raise only in those situations where there is chance to stay at the two level: Namely

1H 1S 2H X

1S 2H X

1m 1S 2H x

 

I.e. I like to be able to show a good raise to two major, especially opposite an overcall which can be fairly weak for me. Otoh, 2/1 overcalls tend to be chunky so I don't thinkt her eis as much need. The second auction is most important if 1S was opened in third seat.

 

 

[dboxley]

Perhaps, I didn't say it clearly. With enough playing strength to invite game in the minor after a 2m overcall, I am willing to make a bid above 3m ---like 3 of their suit.

 

Ten-counts with 3-card support don't measure up to L+, IMO.

 

This would leave 2NT for another purpose, like extreme distribution in the other two suits.

 

I think it depends on the 10 count with 3 card support. There are a lot of hands where I would only make a single raise with ten. Maybe it's me who didn't make myself clear. Overcaller won't go on to game in a minor opposite a lr+ nearly as often as in a major since game in a minor requires 11 tricks. Why risk the 4 level opposite a minimum overcall? It may be that 3NT will make but 5 of the minor has no play. I don't see any reason not to differentiate between a 10 or 11 point raise and a 6 point raise if you have the tools. I guess the deciding factor would be frequency. How often would you be dealt a freakish 2 suiter in the unbids? And what type of hand does partner need to pass a responsive double?

[Zelandakh]

Silly question perhaps but what is the advantage of playing 2NT as the good raise rather than transfers? After (1♠) - 2♥ - (2♠), 2NT = clubs, 3♣ = diamonds, 3♦ = good raise seems to cover everything just as well and provides an extra bid in each auction rather than all 3 steps in one. The same for the (1♥) - 2♦ - 2♥ auction; 2♠ = natural, 2NT = clubs, 3♣ = good raise.

[gnasher]

Silly question perhaps but what is the advantage of playing 2NT as the good raise rather than transfers? After (1♠) - 2♥ - (2♠), 2NT = clubs, 3♣ = diamonds, 3♦ = good raise seems to cover everything just as well and provides an extra bid in each auction rather than all 3 steps in one. The same for the (1♥) - 2♦ - 2♥ auction; 2♠ = natural, 2NT = clubs, 3♣ = good raise.

The advantage of 2NT as a raise is that it gives you more room for game-tries. As you say, the advantage of transfers is that it gives you two bids when you're showing a new suit.

 

In most such situations, the advantages of transfers outweigh the benefits of having extra space in the support sequence, and I think that's true here. The only reason I don't play transfers in this sequence is the fear of someone forgetting them.

[PhilKing]

Silly question perhaps but what is the advantage of playing 2NT as the good raise rather than transfers? After (1♠) - 2♥ - (2♠), 2NT = clubs, 3♣ = diamonds, 3♦ = good raise seems to cover everything just as well and provides an extra bid in each auction rather than all 3 steps in one. The same for the (1♥) - 2♦ - 2♥ auction; 2♠ = natural, 2NT = clubs, 3♣ = good raise.

 

Because you have the good raise far more often and it is far more important.

 

Over 2NT you have room for a dialogue rather than just answering "yes" or "no" to partner's 3♦ game try as you would playing transfers.

 

Snap! See above, although different conclusion - I play transfers in most competitive auctions but not where we lose space for the good raise.