Balancing decision at the 3 level vs 2D Multi

[Chamaco]

Hi all.

 

[hv=d=w&s=sxhkqxdkqjt9xcaxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP

2D*-p-2H**-3D

3S-p-p-?[/hv]

(I forgot vulnerability)

 

You play IMPS and after dealer opens 2D Multi (weak 2 in a major or strong 4441) and his pard bids 2H (weak response or decent hand with mild tolerance for ♠but not ♥), we bid 3 diamonds.

 

When the bidding comes back to us the questions are:

 

1) is double takeout at the level of 3 spades. This is undiscussed, and the t/o of 3 Spades is quite high level and there may be equal arguments for using it as penalty or takeout.

So - besides the obvious "you can play whatever you want/like with agreements" I'd like to know what to expect in this situation if I have no agreements;

 

2) if the double is takeout: would you reopen by t/o or by bidding at the 4 level at:

- all vuln

-none vuln

- unfavourable

-favourable

 

3) if the double is NOT t/o. Would you compete ?

 

4) what would you do at Matchpoints ?

 

Thanks !

[the hog]

For me the bidding is too high at 3S. I have shown a decent hand with 3D, and while I would play X as takeout here, I want a 4th H. If the X is not played as takeout, you can't X because though you have good playing strength, you don't have a huge amount of defence.

[Chamaco]

For me the bidding is too high at 3S. I have shown a decent hand with 3D, and while I would play X as takeout here, I want a 4th H. If the X is not played as takeout, you can't X because though you have good playing strength, you don't have a huge amount of defence.

Ty Ron, so I assume that at IMPS you would passout or maybe stretch to double for takeout ?

And would it be different at MP (accounting also for vuln) ?

[whereagles]

I double for take-out. If double is not take-out, I bid 4D. Might pass at imps, but definitely bid at MPs.

[inquiry]

1) is double takeout at the level of 3 spades. This is undiscussed, and the t/o of 3 Spades is quite high level and there may be equal arguments for using it as penalty or takeout.

So - besides the obvious "you can play whatever you want/like with agreements" I'd like to know what to expect in this situation if I have no agreements;

 

2) if the double is takeout: would you reopen by t/o or by bidding at the 4 level at:

- all vuln

-none vuln

- unfavourable

-favourable

 

3) if the double is NOT t/o. Would you compete ?

 

4) what would you do at Matchpoints ?

 

Thanks !

Yes, double is takeout. All doubles before a fit is found are for takeout. Here, you have not found a fit yet, so... tada, double is takout.

 

2. Yes I would double at imps, all vulnerabilities. I wouild double at matchpoints as well.

 

3. If double is not takout, I have to pass. But I would never play that way. Note if I am long in spades,and short in the other two suits (penalty doublish), then my partenr would be short in spades, and he didn't double for takeout at either of his opportunity.

 

Ben

[Antoine Fourrière]

1) Double is takeout, since partner didn't say anything.

2) Double, any vul, any scoring method. Responder either is weak or has no heart fit. If responder doesn't have three hearts and opener doesn't have four, we have a heart fit. (I view this as a flaw of the usual multis, though some responders may bid 2♥ with an invitational hand with six hearts. A variant including also the five-spade, five-heart two-suiters -- with or without the major-minor two-suiters -- wouldn't allow that kind of reasoning.)

3) No, unless 3N is for takeout.

4) Double, as answered above.

[flytoox]

3S is an interesting bid. His pd didnt promise spade fit. Did he?

[Fluffy]

double take out.

 

Further bidding depends on agreements, to me your 3♦ bid has shown already your hand quite good so no need of further bidding.

 

If you may make light overcalls then you are now having to double.

[inquiry]

3S is an interesting bid. His pd didnt promise spade fit. Did he?

If RHO had lots of hearts, and few spades, he would bid 2♠, not 2♥. This is LOTT thing, where they are playable at three level if they have big old heart fit. IF RHO had 3/4 in both majors, he would bid 3♥ (pass/correct) usually.

 

So the most likley holding for RHO is two hearts, 3/4 spades. Although he could be short in both majors. In theory, RHO should never be long in hearts and short in spades. although sometimes they will cross you up with this type of hand.

 

I supect here, some of the time, the biddign will go 3♠X (for takeou) followed by all pass as your partner has spades (thus RHO is short in spades and long in hearts).. and it partner is short in spades (say RHO has four card support)? Then partner will be bidding something at the four level.. and whatever it is, we have a reasonable hand for him. Remember in this case, they were willing to stop in 3♠ with a ten card fit, marking partner with some useful non-spades. And distribution (short in spades, probalby no real diamond support).

 

Ben

[hrothgar]

Hi All

 

From my perspective, it would be very useful to understand what a 2♠ response to the multi 2♦ opening would have shown. Many people play so-called paradox responses in which 2♠ would show a hand willing to play at the three level opposite a weak 2 in Hearts but only at the 2 level opposite a weak 2 in Sapdes.

 

Without knowning what the 2♠ response would have shown, its difficult to make an intelligent decision...

[Chamaco]

Hi All

 

From my perspective, it would be very useful to understand what a 2♠ response to the multi 2♦ opening would have shown. Many people play so-called paradox responses in which 2♠ would show a hand willing to play at the three level opposite a weak 2 in Hearts but only at the 2 level opposite a weak 2 in Sapdes.

 

Without knowning what the 2♠ response would have shown, its difficult to make an intelligent decision...

Yes, 2S would be paradox, and you do not know whether thy play 3H or 4H or 3NT as pass or correct in tye major (you ask and they have no agreements).

[hrothgar]

Yes, 2S would be paradox, and you do not know whether thy play 3H or 4H or 3NT as pass or correct in tye major (you ask and they have no agreements).

If 2♠ is paradox, then I should be able to double for takeout

Partner will be able to make an intelligent decision

 

Advancer has denied Spade tolerance

Preempter has ignored this and decided to rebid his suit.

You need to make the opponents pay in these situations....

[helene_t]

Double is t/o and shows approximately this distribution. 3♠ is a strange bid, if LHO wants to compete to the 3-level on his own he should have opened 3♠, which would have made my decision more dificult.

 

I think the hand is strong enough for dbl although it's a borderline decision.

[Chamaco]

Advancer has denied Spade tolerance

Preempter has ignored this and decided to rebid his suit.

You need to make the opponents pay in these situations....

Richard,

bidding went

 

2D-pass-2H- (and not 2S) - 3D

etc etc

 

So responder has bid 2H not denying spade tolerance.

[hrothgar]

Advancer has denied Spade tolerance

Preempter has ignored this and decided to rebid his suit.

You need to make the opponents pay in these situations....

Richard,

bidding went

 

2D-pass-2H- (and not 2S) - 3D

etc etc

 

So responder has bid 2H not denying spade tolerance.

URK

 

Brainfart. Ignore what I said...

Thats what I get for posting when I'm focued on what to cook for thanksgiving

 

http://www.recipezaar.com/recipe/getrecipe.zsp?id=67291 is the leading contender