(1D)--1H--(P)--??

[benlessard]

MP R vs W

 

(1D)--1H--(P)--??

 

JTxx

x

xx

KQJxxx

 

Do you play that 1S is forcing or not ?

 

If you bid 1S and partner reply 1NT is 2C by you showing some extras ?

[han]

I would bid 2C before it is too late.

 

Both 1S and 2C are NF for me.

[the hog]

I would bid 2C on this. It is nf for me also.

[semeai]

I like 1/1 forcing and 2/1 non-forcing (if not playing transfer advances). Of course, 1/1 nonforcing is also decent.

 

Here I agree that 2C is the bid.

[Codo]

I prefer 1 ♠ forcing, but this is no hand to care about that, I have an easy NF 2 ♣ bid.

[gnasher]

I usually play new suits forcing.

 

1♠ followed by 2♣ would show 5+ spades and 4+ clubs. It doesn't promise any more strength than already shown.

[han]

So I take it that you would pass 1H? If mikeh was here he would post a hand where 1H is hopeless but 6C makes.

[gnasher]

So I take it that you would pass 1H? If mikeh was here he would post a hand where 1H is hopeless but 6C makes.

 

Yes, I'd pass 1♥. Since Mike isn't around, here's a hand where I'd overcall 1♥ but we can make 7♣: A Axxxx AQ Axxxx

[the_clown]

Easy 2♣. 1♠ would be forcing, mostly 5+ cards

[benlessard]

I like 1/1 forcing and 2/1 non-forcing (if not playing transfer advances). Of course, 1/1 nonforcing is also decent.

 

Here I agree that 2C is the bid.

Agree but why not 1S here if its forcing ? Over a 1Nt you can always bid 2C and if partner raise with 3s in MP 2S rate to be decent. I think a 2C rebid can only show at least decent 5C and often 4S/5C and doesnt show extra strength.

 

 

If 1S is non-forcing it strongly suggest 5S and the proper bid is 2C, if 1S NF followed by 1Nt by partner a further rebid of 2C by me should suggest extra strenght but still not forcing since when partner strenght is still wide ranging.

 

I also think passing 1H is reasonnable.

[lowerline]

MP R vs W

 

(1D)--1H--(P)--??

 

JTxx

x

xx

KQJxxx

 

Do you play that 1S is forcing or not ?

 

If you bid 1S and partner reply 1NT is 2C by you showing some extras ?

 

Pass. It is very unlikely that this will be passed out. Usually opener keeps it open with a double (in case his partner has a penalty pass). If responder then passes for penalty I can bid 2♣ to play.

 

Steven

 

 

[han]

why not 1S here if its forcing ? Over a 1Nt you can always bid 2C and if partner raise with 3s in MP 2S rate to be decent. I think a 2C rebid can only show at least decent 5C and often 4S/5C and doesnt show extra strength.

 

Because opener might rebid 2D or more and you never get to bid your clubs. Because 2S in the 4-3 may not be decent because your spades are too weak to enjoy your clubs. Because after 1S - 1NT - 2C partner will convert to 2S with 2-2 in the black suits, especially at matchpoints, and the 4-2 will probably not be decent. And most of all because you have KQJxxx of clubs.

 

I also disagree with lowerline's It is very unlikely that this will be passed out. When opener has 3+ hearts and a minimal opening he will often pass. Given our hand that is not so unlikely.

[JLOGIC]

I would bid 2C if I played it as NF (which I do), and pass if new suits were forcing

[semeai]

Hey, this hand sort of qualifies for an extension of that ridiculous convention Reverse Flannery++ I jokingly suggested: A jump to 2S over 1H showing 4S and 5+C. Doesn't quite fit the suggested invitational strength requirement though. :lol:

[benlessard]

Because opener might rebid 2D or more and you never get to bid your clubs. Because 2S in the 4-3 may not be decent because your spades are too weak to enjoy your clubs. Because after 1S - 1NT - 2C partner will convert to 2S with 2-2 in the black suits, especially at matchpoints, and the 4-2 will probably not be decent. And most of all because you have KQJxxx of clubs

if opener rebid 2D im probaly happy to have showned my S before my clubs since my hand is only worth 1 bid. If my hand were stronger I would bid 2C followed by 2S wich shows extras. If you play 1S forcing than its clear that with 2-2 hes going to pass 2C, the same way that if you are a passed hand 1M followed by 2m suggest 46/45 rather than 54/55 and not some sort of new minor forcing.

 

The way i see it is bidding up the line even in canape simply allow you to find more fits.

 

if 45/55/46 I bid S followed by 2C. If Ive got extras I can bid C followed by 2S. If I get only 1 bid Ive showned my S first. The drawback is that if partner is 3/3 in my suits im playing 2S in 43 rather than 2C in 53 (but the chance of buying it at the 2C was slim anyway)

if 54/I bid S and still get the chance to still play in a 4-4 club fit since partner can bid 2C, if partner bid 1Nt, It doesnt bother me to pass and hide my 2nd suit (a minor) when im playing 1Nt at MP. While the opposite missing a 4-4 M fit is often a disaster.

With a 64 I bid 1S wich still allow partner to bid 2C or 1Nt. So I still have decent chance to get a 4-4 fit and worst case I can repeat my S.

 

Non canape style

If im 45/46 i bid club first and might lose the 44 forever

If im 54/64 I bid S first and get no advantage whatsoever. Other than being able to play 2C instead of 2red when its 1552 vs 4216 or similar hand.

 

However I admit that the suit disparity is huge here and 2C in a 6-1 or 62 might easily be better than 1Nt or 2S.

 

Im wondering if most people played M.Lawrence style for advancer (new suit is constructive NF even at the 1 level).

[JLOGIC]

What is your fascination with spades on this hand?

[rsteele]

I overcall 4 cd suits with length in the opponents suit much to often to consider a pass so I would respond a simple NF 2 clubs.

[ahydra]

I was led to believe the modern style is "NF but encouraging", which makes 2C a standout bid. Still, this is just another one of those hands where you just wish you were allowed to TOX your partner's bid...

 

ahydra

[benlessard]

What is your fascination with spades on this hand?

I just dont understand why bidding S and clubs suggest longer S than clubs or why partner with 22 in the black will correct to 2S (wich simply make no sense to me). I also dont understand why 1S suggest 5 if its forcing.

 

Here a good number of players play that same level advances are forcing. (1)--2--(P)--2, (1)--1--(P)--1 are forcing so its natural to bid majors up the line, clearly i now know that its an offbeat style.

[fromageGB]

I play 1♠ as forcing, and also play 2♣ as forcing. So I pass.

 

To those who play 2♣ as non-forcing : what do you do with a better (say invitational values) hand?

[Codo]

I play 1♠ as forcing, and also play 2♣ as forcing. So I pass.

 

To those who play 2♣ as non-forcing : what do you do with a better (say invitational values) hand?

 

Because of this everyday problem, I bid 2 NT to show a good heart raise and 2 ♦ to show a forcing hand with no clear goal.

And personally, I like to play strong jump shifts here, so if it is a hand all about clubs, I would bid 3 ♣, this way something like 2 ♦ then 3 ♣ is quite uncertain about the strain with 5 or 6 clubs, a direct jump forcing with a real suit.

But this is hardly mainstream- maybe not any stream at all. :)

[the hog]

I play 1♠ as forcing, and also play 2♣ as forcing. So I pass.

 

To those who play 2♣ as non-forcing : what do you do with a better (say invitational values) hand?

 

Find a raise, bid 2D or NT to the appropriate level.

[MrAce]

 

To those who play 2♣ as non-forcing : what do you do with a better (say invitational values) hand?

 

You still bid nf 2♣ NF doesn't mean that you have a trash. You are looking at it the other way and trying to make response to an overcall a "defined bid" which is very hard to do. Overcaller will pass with minimum values and no fit. He will almost always show if he has a fit to your suit and a minimum hand by simple raise, number of trumps your side holds will be usually enough to play a 3 level partscore in the worst case. As oppose to playing it forcing now if overcaller makes another bid rather than raising you or cueing or passing, you will have extra info about his hand than those who plays it forcing, because after all pd has to bid something over a forcing 2♣, but over a nf 2♣ you know he is bidding because he wants to, not because he was forced to.

 

It has downsides too, of course. But i wouldn't worry about pd passing my 2♣ when he overcalled 1♠ over 1♥ and i have xx xx AQx AKJxxx. Lets say he has AJxxx Kxx Jxxx x. I am happy to play 2♣. Lets say he has AJxxx xxx Jx Qxx and raised me to 3♣ i am still happy to play there. 1 level overcall by the way, for me, can be made with much weaker hands than the example i gave for pd. To me AQTxx alone is basically enough to make an overcall (but i am not stupid, vulnerability matters of course)

 

So playing nf but constructive style responses to overcall is not as scary as people thinks of it. It really doesnt worth to sit and imagine hands where we may have a giant when at least 3 people at the table are bidding, sometimes 4 and noone preempted. It gives you a lot of flexibility.

 

Playing it forcing also has some advantages, for example you have 3 card fit + 6 card suit or AQ AK KJ KQ tide support for pd + long suit of yours and you really dont want pd to pass even with min and you really wanna mention your suit too...but i like it the other way.

[dake50]

1S looks more like S:xx H:Jxxx D:x C:KQJxxx.

Some chance to win in hearts if we spook their spades.

[lycier]

maybe this hand need many of flexible bids to show,so bid 2c force a round at first,then wait a chance to bid 2s,and then rebid 3c is as a final bid with non-forcing,believe partner can have last decision rightly.