Overbidders Anonymous

[semeai]

I was playing one of those breezy online sessions where overbids flowed like wine. Fortunately, few of the hands resulted in any immediate unfortunate consequences. Looking back over the hands is giving me a headache, though.

 

Rate my overbids on a scale from 0 to 5, with 0 being "I'd bid that myself in serious competition" to 5 being "Those cards with the letters on them, those are the good ones."

 

Also, upgrade each hand (by adding/improving high cards to the hand) to give a normal minimum for each action, if you please.

 

Everything at IMPs.

 

1. 1st seat R/W. Qxxx xx AK8xx Jx. P P P 1S; 2D

 

2. 1st seat W/R. AJx x Q109xx AKJx. 1D 1S P 2H; X

 

3. 3rd seat R/W. KJ10x 10xxx KQx Kx. 1S P 2N P; 3H X 4N

 

4. 3rd seat W/W. Jxx KJ10xx KQJx x. P 1C 1H 3C; 3H 4C 4H

 

5. 1st seat W/R. Kx AK10xx KQJ xxx. 1N - diamond transfer (no invite possible) - 3N.

[Bbradley62]

0...1. 1st seat R/W. Qxxx xx AK8xx Jx. P P P 1S; 2D

 

0...2. 1st seat W/R. AJx x Q109xx AKJx. 1D 1S P 2H; X

 

0...3. 3rd seat R/W. KJ10x 10xxx KQx Kx. 1S P 2N P; 3H X 4N

 

0...4. 3rd seat W/W. Jxx KJ10xx KQJx x. P 1C 1H 3C; 3H 4C 4H

 

5...5. 1st seat W/R. Kx AK10xx KQJ xxx. 1N - diamond transfer (no invite possible) - 3N.

I may be too old-fashioned, but when I open 1N, partner is in charge; if he transfers me to diamonds I accept the transfer. If you're going to feel the need to say "but I have more than a 1NT opener", don't open 1NT in the first place.

[phil_20686]

1. 1st seat R/W. Qxxx xx AK8xx Jx. P P P 1S; 2D

 

2. 1st seat W/R. AJx x Q109xx AKJx. 1D 1S P 2H; X

 

3. 3rd seat R/W. KJ10x 10xxx KQx Kx. 1S P 2N P; 3H X 4N

 

4. 3rd seat W/W. Jxx KJ10xx KQJx x. P 1C 1H 3C; 3H 4C 4H

 

5. 1st seat W/R. Kx AK10xx KQJ xxx. 1N - diamond transfer (no invite possible) - 3N.

 

1). This is about a three imo. You are a passed hand, so its not so much a points issue, its just that overcalling with Qxxx in rho's suit often indicates that you are walking into a misfit, and there is no compensating shape to make the risk worthwhile.

 

2) This is fine basically. Sure maybe you should wait to see if the auction dies, but you could still easily have a game or a good sacrifice in clubs. You won't look smart passing if it goes 4S p p back to you, and partner had x xxxx Kx Qxxxxx or something. Game in a minor isn't even out of the question at this point imo. I also have a lot of sympathy for passing here, you could also be putting your head into the alligators jaws.

 

3) Is this showing extras with a stiff heart? If it is it looks routine to bid keycard. AQxxx x Axxx Qxx and you are totally cold, and that doesnt even have extras. Ill give it a 0.

 

4) I think its right to pass, but game could be making. Make this a 3.

 

5) I don't like this bid, could I not underbreak? 1N-2N-3c expresses the hand well. The idea is fine though, you just need a better way to show a hand that is eager to accept without going for a bucked opposite seven low diamonds and out. :)

[Codo]

1. a 4 for Phils reasons.

2. a 1, with the ace of diamonds instead of the ace of spades, I would rate it a zero.

3. a 5. Why do you hurry for KCs? I would pass and let partner XX with the ace or bid another control without it. He is still more or less unlimited, isn't he?

4. A 3 Yes, I have the stiff, but I have not so much extra offense that I need to bid now.

5. A 5 I should change my methods to be able to show such a great support and still be able to play in 3 Diamonds. If this is not possible, I would not breech partnership discipline.

[akwoo]

I was playing one of those breezy online sessions where overbids flowed like wine. Fortunately, few of the hands resulted in any immediate unfortunate consequences. Looking back over the hands is giving me a headache, though.

 

Rate my overbids on a scale from 0 to 5, with 0 being "I'd bid that myself in serious competition" to 5 being "Those cards with the letters on them, those are the good ones."

 

Also, upgrade each hand (by adding/improving high cards to the hand) to give a normal minimum for each action, if you please.

 

Everything at IMPs.

 

1. 1st seat R/W. Qxxx xx AK8xx Jx. P P P 1S; 2D

 

2. 1st seat W/R. AJx x Q109xx AKJx. 1D 1S P 2H; X

 

3. 3rd seat R/W. KJ10x 10xxx KQx Kx. 1S P 2N P; 3H X 4N

 

4. 3rd seat W/W. Jxx KJ10xx KQJx x. P 1C 1H 3C; 3H 4C 4H

 

5. 1st seat W/R. Kx AK10xx KQJ xxx. 1N - diamond transfer (no invite possible) - 3N.

 

1. (1) I'd bid that many times at the club, or with a known to be timid partner, or when I feel a slight need to swing. In serious competition, upgrade the J to a K, or move the Q anywhere else.

 

2. (0) (Okay - maybe not when ahead in knockout teams.)

 

3. (5) assuming 4S is fast arrival and 3S (or pass) suggests slam is possible opposite a perfect hand with not much extras.

 

4. (0-3) depending on agreements. If RHO definitely has 10+ and partner could have nothing more than Qxxx of hearts, it's a (3). If RHO might have no more than 5 clubs to the KJ and partner has at least a somewhat useful 6 count, it's a (0). But in any case, 4D is a better bid because it helps partner judge a sacrifice to 5H if necessary.

 

5. (2) There are not completely unlikely 0 point hands partner could have that make 4D, and he or she should be taking me out to 4D on a 0 count. But I'd prefer to have a club stopper myself; with this hand, you're still going down in 3N when partner has Axxxxxx of diamonds and a random Q.

[the hog]

No 1 is a 5.This is the sort of hand that deserves to go for 1100. A very poor overcall with nothing to gain.

[han]

3) Is this showing extras with a stiff heart? If it is it looks routine to bid keycard. AQxxx x Axxx Qxx and you are totally cold.

 

Totally cold for 5S?

 

To me the question in each of the problems is not "how aggressive is this", but "how good is this". Jumping to keycards on this hand is just bad bridge.

[semeai]

Thanks for the responses. Some results and self-assessment:

 

1. The opponents bid hearts and I was off the hook. It seems a pretty bad bid, with only moderate upside and large not infrequent downside. Let's say a 4.

 

2. I was least certain about this hand. Partner was 2-3 (something like xxxx J9xx xx xxx) in the minors and pulled to 3C, was doubled, he ran to 3D, and they went back to hearts and let us off the hook. Partner rates to have at most 3 hearts so they likely have a 9 card fit (not true on the actual hand) and acting can find a nice fit, but maybe I'm too weak with two live opponents. I guess I'l say 2.

 

3. We ended up in 5, making (partner had 2+Q). The logic of course was that all I cared about now was the Aces and Queen of trump. The bid was just undisciplined, though: passing must be correct. This gives me a shot to stop low if partner is very unenthusiastic as well as a shot at finding out about a void.

 

I'll agree mostly with Han that the problem was that it was poor to do instead of my hand being too weak, but notice that with KJ10x Axxx KQx Kx it seems fine to just bid keycard (solves the strength and void problems simulatenously).

 

4. This was just silly. My hand is weak and I don't actually expect to make and they're not in game. I didn't bid 4D because I didn't want to help them decide whether to bid 5C and didn't think we were going to 5H (not sure about this theory). They bid 5C (wouldn't have made) and partner went to 5H, doubled down 2; diamonds were 4 - 1 - 4 around the table (i.e. 1 for partner). Let's say a 3.

 

5. This did make when partner showed up with Ace sixth and a club stop, obviously a super max. Not having the superaccept possibility was unideal, sure. The theory of course was for partner to have ♦A and the opponents to lead spades and not switch to clubs, which is hoping for a lot in general. This one, like #3, is not an overbid but is just bad.

[the hog]

"It seems a pretty bad bid"????

Sorry, but giving hand 1 a rating of 4 is a real overbid. This is truly awful. Even 5 is an overbid.

 

Hand 5 I would rate as a 4.

[semeai]

"It seems a pretty bad bid"????

Sorry, but giving hand 1 a rating of 4 is a real overbid. This is truly awful. Even 5 is an overbid.

 

Hand 5 I would rate as a 4.

 

I'm known for understatement. You appear to have a penchant for overstatement. I'm not so sure we think all that differently about this hand.

 

But really, here I am offering up for criticism some hands I specifically did something stupid on, from a quick online game. You might be a bit more courteous in your disapproval. "Truly awful" I don't mind. I asked for opinions. The four ?'s and the bold? That seems uncalled for.

[semeai]

"It seems a pretty bad bid"????

Sorry, but giving hand 1 a rating of 4 is a real overbid. This is truly awful. Even 5 is an overbid.

 

Hand 5 I would rate as a 4.

I'm known for understatement. You appear to have a penchant for overstatement. I'm not so sure we think all that differently about this hand.

 

But really, here I am offering up for criticism some hands I specifically did something stupid on, from a quick online game. You might be a bit more courteous in your disapproval. "Truly awful" I don't mind. I asked for opinions. The four ?'s and the bold? That seems uncalled for.

 

To bring the discussion back to bridge, what's the least upgrade to that hand you'd be comfortable overcalling on at unfavorable at imps?

[the hog]

To bring the discussion back to bridge, what's the least upgrade to that hand you'd be comfortable overcalling on at unfavorable at imps?

 

Seriously, I don't think my emphasis is rude at all The bid is so poor I would probably not play again with someone who made it. What does it gain? You have removed 2C from the opps and that is it. Maybe you have indicated a lead, but you might well be on lead anyway. You have also given them a negative double.

What can it cost? At worst you make 2 tricks and the opps have a game only on. (I agree that that is unlikely). 4 off is certainly a possibility.

 

To answer your question. Both pd and I are passed hands, so there are very few hands on which I would bid 2D here. Playing a weak 2D, there are no hands on which I would bid 2D. Not playing a weak 2 in Ds, I would bid 2D on AKJxxx or AQJxxx and an outside card.

A freakish 2 suiter where I passed for tactical reasons on the first round might be a more likely possibility

[Codo]

You are old enough not to need this advice, but don't take Rons (or anyone elses) wording too hard, sometimes it sounds more rude on the internet as it ws meant to be. I believe that the wording had been much harsher some years ago, but who can trust his own memory?

 

Anyway, back to bridge: AS Phil pointed out, chances are big that you have a misfit and in this case, you better have a good suit on your own. I would like to hold at least AKJ8xxx, but if I would wait for perfect hands to overcall, I would not overcall enough. So given your terrible spade holding, I would try 2 Clubs with AKJxxx. If I had the majors switched, I had tried 1 NT, which hopefully shows this kind of hand as a passed hand.

With xx,Jx,AK8xx,Qxxx I may had overcalled 2 ♦. This is still very ugly, but it could be right to get the lead in before they reach their best contract.

[rhm]

Everything at IMPs.

 

1. 1st seat R/W. Qxxx xx AK8xx Jx. P P P 1S; 2D --> 5 ; asking for trouble

 

2. 1st seat W/R. AJx x Q109xx AKJx. 1D 1S P 2H; X --> 0 ; acceptable if it is understood to show such a hand.

 

3. 3rd seat R/W. KJ10x 10xxx KQx Kx. 1S P 2N P; 3H X 4N --> 5 ; without an ace I am not bidding past game uninvited. I am also interested whether partner is void in hearts. Pass is clearly indicated.

 

4. 3rd seat W/W. Jxx KJ10xx KQJx x. P 1C 1H 3C; 3H 4C 4H --> 4 ; just too aggressive

 

5. 1st seat W/R. Kx AK10xx KQJ xxx. 1N - diamond transfer (no invite possible) - 3N. --> 3 ; could work, but against the odds if partner intends to pass the transfer.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[han]

I don't think my emphasis is rude at all The bid is so poor I would probably not play again with someone who made it.

 

While I agree that 2D was a poor bid, to me the jump to 4NT on hand 3 is much worse. I wouldn't end my partnership after an aggressive overcall, I like aggressive overcalls, and this is a mistake that can be corrected (especially if it goes for 1100!).

 

I would understand all the other bids and not even say something about them at the table. While I think that they were all wrong, they all seem to be the thinking kind of mistakes, mistakes that a beginner would probably not make. This is why hand 3 would bother me, that is a not-thinking mistake, and I don't like to play bridge with partners that refuse to think.

[helene_t]

2...1: This is the kind of bid I would make at the club but probably shouldn't make against good opps.

 

2...2: I wouldn't make this call, I like to think that p would take me for a slightly better hand. But it may be winning style to do it.

 

4...3: Silly, why not wait and see if p can make a control bid? But OK we do want to be in slam if we have enough keycards so it could work.

 

1...2: A bit optimistic but I would do this as well.

 

5...5: This is really very optimistic. If 3NT is a good contract with p planning to pass 3♦, I suspect p has underbid.

[semeai]

How heartening, all of you deciding you'd never play with me. Have you never made poor aggressive calls or non-thinking errors?

 

This was a quick, casual online session. I swear, my bridge instincts and ability with a normal several second pause >> my bridge instincts and ability with a very short pause. Furthermore, the session was injected with a little lighthearted braggadocio and a somewhat carefree attitude toward the (at least bidding) results.

 

Anyway, the thread was mostly supposed to be funny (hence the opening paragraph), an amusing exercise to decide how far off from real bids these were (I think all were poor), and also to test out people's minimums for these calls.

 

I'm particularly interested in #2, which was the only one partner actually spoke up about at the table. I'm not even certain whether this is the correct hand type to play it on. I guess the consensus is that it is this hand type, and that everyone would certainly do it if it had, say, another King, or maybe Queen?

[semeai]

To answer your question. Both pd and I are passed hands, so there are very few hands on which I would bid 2D here. Playing a weak 2D, there are no hands on which I would bid 2D. Not playing a weak 2 in Ds, I would bid 2D on AKJxxx or AQJxxx and an outside card.

A freakish 2 suiter where I passed for tactical reasons on the first round might be a more likely possibility

Anyway, back to bridge: AS Phil pointed out, chances are big that you have a misfit and in this case, you better have a good suit on your own. I would like to hold at least AKJ8xxx, but if I would wait for perfect hands to overcall, I would not overcall enough. So given your terrible spade holding, I would try 2 Clubs with AKJxxx. If I had the majors switched, I had tried 1 NT, which hopefully shows this kind of hand as a passed hand.

With xx,Jx,AK8xx,Qxxx I may had overcalled 2 ♦. This is still very ugly, but it could be right to get the lead in before they reach their best contract.

 

Thanks. Needing a good 6 card suit with less than an opener makes sense, or maybe as Codo suggests a hand with 5♦-4-not-spades, though we should have better texture than here I suppose.

 

If we open it up to the possibility that I'm unpassed and the auction went P P 1S ?, unfav, imps, what's your minimum with this shape (4-2-5-2)?

[han]

Your call on 2 was not so strange, although I would like better diamonds. I agree with you about the hand type.

[semeai]

Your call on 2 was not so strange, although I would like better diamonds. I agree with you about the hand type.

 

Thanks. You agree that this is the correct hand type for X, or you agree that you're not certain what hand type is best for this to be?

 

We have a lot of bids here: X, 2S, 2N, 3C. I'm not certain what they all should mean. One possibility is that X should have >1 ♥ and still the minors, and with this shape I'm supposed to bid one of those other things if I decide I'm worth a call.

[TimG]

Everything at IMPs.

 

1. 1st seat R/W. Qxxx xx AK8xx Jx. P P P 1S; 2D

 

2. 1st seat W/R. AJx x Q109xx AKJx. 1D 1S P 2H; X

 

3. 3rd seat R/W. KJ10x 10xxx KQx Kx. 1S P 2N P; 3H X 4N

 

4. 3rd seat W/W. Jxx KJ10xx KQJx x. P 1C 1H 3C; 3H 4C 4H

 

5. 1st seat W/R. Kx AK10xx KQJ xxx. 1N - diamond transfer (no invite possible) - 3N.

 

1) 4.5, it's hard to come up with a hand that will pass as dealer and make this overcall (if a weak 2D was available);

2) 4, I don't really see the point, the opponents haven't found a fit (partner's failure to make a negative double does not deny 4 hearts -- it could also just show a lack of strength) and I don't need to suggest a sacrifice with the potential I have on defense;

3) 5, just because it takes up space for no apparent reason, it's anti-partnership;

4) 4, at first I thought this was just over-valuing the hand (advancer would stretch to bid game when there is no invite possible over 3C) and gave it a 5, but given that partner is a passed hand, I guess you were sacrificing against their partscore;

5) 5, you're shooting for a very narrow range of hands, even with something like Ace-sixth of diamonds and QJx of clubs, we might not make 3N and responder probably would have shot out 3N with that hand rather than signoff.

[TimG]

You are old enough not to need this advice, but don't take Rons (or anyone elses) wording too hard, sometimes it sounds more rude on the internet as it ws meant to be.

Ron has been around long enough to know [how] he sounds. I think it is intentional, sort of trolling. But, maybe he just doesn't understand (or care). Your advice is, of course, good in general, but there are also times when it's not wrong to put someone in the kill file.

Edited September 7, 2012 by inquiry
slight edit for TOS issues

[han]

2) 4, I don't really see the point, the opponents haven't found a fit (partner's failure to make a negative double does not deny 4 hearts -- it could also just show a lack of strength) and I don't need to suggest a sacrifice with the potential I have on defense;

 

I don't agree with your last line. If I double 2H here in a live auction, I most of all have a strong hand. My partner won't sacrifice over their game.

[TimG]

I don't agree with your last line. If I double 2H here in a live auction, I most of all have a strong hand. My partner won't sacrifice over their game.

I would imagine the double as encouraging competition and being more offense oriented, maybe with Jxx x AKTxx AQJx or Jx x AKTxxx AQJx. Something where partner can expect my defensive tricks might not so easily cash because they are in my long suits rather than being the Ace(-Jack) in one of their suits.

 

But, I probably shouldn't have said "suggest a sacrifice" as much as "encourage competition" because competing over 4M might be a make as well as a sac.

[the hog]

Tim [have you heard] the adage, "It is better to remain silent an be thought of as a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. I must admit i do find your posts useful occasionally; [snip] Edited September 7, 2012 by inquiry
To remove a TOS violation. Perhaps entire post should have been deleted but this was a reply to an earlier shot at him. I do realize the last edit snippet 100% changed the meaning of the final sentence... he really doesn't mean what it now reads