Big Club / Convention Card grumble

[jillybean]

ACBL

 

Playing in 2 sectionals recently I have been caught out twice by this. The auction starts P (1♣) alert!!, what is it?, Precision.

Oh dang, we have not discussed our defence to a strong club and now that the auction has started, I can't tell partner what I want to play.

 

Yes, it's my fault, I should have checked the opponents CC before we started.

 

However, since this is the law I think the TD's need to enforce the requirement for each player to have a correctly completed convention card, on the table.

People leave their cards in their bags, sit on them, use them as coasters for their coffee and attach stickers to them so that they are unreadable.

I asked one guy for his CC and he passed me a card saying "This isn't our card but we play most of the stuff on it"

 

It's a PITA having to ask for your opponents card each time you sit down for a 2-3 board round.

 

I think it would be best for players to announce their system and if they fail to do so and the opponents are damaged, then have redress available.

[daveharty]

Agree that the requirement for both players to have identical completed CC's is almost universally ignored, at least around here. It would be helpful if the directors made an announcement at the beginning of each session to the effect of "You must have etc., etc.".

 

By the way, I hope that you aren't letting your opponents get away with explaining the alert of 1C as "Precision."

[glen]

... I think it would be best for players to announce their system ...

Agreed, I'm surprised it's not a regulation, and the mandatory introduction should include a reference to special carding if they play it.

 

Examples:

 

Hello, we play 2/1, and upside down carding

Welcome, we play Andrew Lee's modified Moscito system, and Cole Slawinski leads

Not you again, if you remember from when we last played in the 50s, we play stone age Roth Stone, and Lenz-Culbertson carding

Hi, we are new, and we don't know what we are playing

[ahydra]

What's the equivalent of a sectional in the UK? At county/national events everybody seems to swap CCs at the beginning of a round. My partner seems to make a point of it - not a bad thing to do, and I think people would get behind including "inform your opponents of your system and carding at the start of a round" as part of county/national events' CoC.

 

ahydra

[semeai]

What's the equivalent of a sectional in the UK? At county/national events everybody seems to swap CCs at the beginning of a round. My partner seems to make a point of it - not a bad thing to do, and I think people would get behind including "inform your opponents of your system and carding at the start of a round" as part of county/national events' CoC.

 

ahydra

 

Sectionals are the smallest of the not-just-held-at-a-club tournaments (usually serving just part of a state or one small state; regionals are larger, usually serving multiple states; and then there are nationals).

 

On this side of the pond swapping CC's happens only occasionally, perhaps due to the expectation that everyone pretty much plays the same thing. At regionals and nationals people are more likely to check, of course.

[Phil]

In other places pairs trade cc's before the round starts. This seems like a sensible idea to me.

 

In any partnership where I've discussed bidding for more than 20 minutes, defense to a strong club comes up. Even if it hadn't, I would not make an ambiguous call like double or 1N.

[paulg]

What's the equivalent of a sectional in the UK? At county/national events everybody seems to swap CCs at the beginning of a round. My partner seems to make a point of it - not a bad thing to do, and I think people would get behind including "inform your opponents of your system and carding at the start of a round" as part of county/national events' CoC.

A sectional is equivalent to a county event.

 

In Scotland, the regulations state "At the start of each round, you should exchange convention cards with your opponents and inform them of your basic system, notrump range, the meaning of your two-level opening bids and any unusual aspects of your system".

 

In England, the EBU believes that the exchange of convention cards is sufficient and there is no need for an announcement.

 

The Scottish approach seems friendlier.

[blackshoe]

The attitude of people (players and officials) towards system cards in North America (at least the small part of it I've played in) has always seemed bizarre to me. When I first got back here from England in the mid 90s, I tried to exchange cards with my opponent. The most common reaction was "What are you doing?" There was also the more than occasional "get that out of my face". :angry: When I've called the director because opps don't have two properly completely cards, I've had some handle it properly, some just let it slide, and some who look at me like I"m from another planet. :(

 

The ACBL alert regulation, under "types of alerts" says "Pre-Alerts are designed to act as an early warning of any unusual methods for which the opponents may need to prepare. (See Part III.)" Part III says "Players are expected to be prepared for the vast majority of systems that they may encounter at the bridge table. Common methods include either strong or weak notrumps with or without five-card majors. The forcing opening bid will most often be an artificial forcing opening of 1♣ or 2♣.

When you play a system structured along different agreements than these, you should draw the opponents attention to your convention card before the round begins. In short, if you play a system that most players would not immediately recognize (such as a canapé system) or one the opponents may wish to discuss before the auction begins (a 10-12 1NT range with distributional requirements for minor-suit openings, for example), you are required to pre-Alert the opponents." So it would seem that Precision is exempted from the requirement to pre-alert.

 

At a sectional, if somebody handed me a card and said "this isn't our card but we play most of the stuff on it" I'd call the director. At a club game, I'd probably just hope we don't get misinformed by something on the card, because if we do, again I'm calling the director. Yeah, it's a game. Yeah I'm not supposed to disturb anybody's fun. By the same token, they're not supposed to disturb my fun, and playing where the rules are ignored certainly does that.

 

I would prefer either the English or the Scottish approach to what we have here now. Although the little red guy with the pointy tail on my left shoulder is whispering to me that it won't matter - people will ignore any new rule on exchanging cards while continuing to ignore the existing requirements. "Rules are for other people, not me". :angry:

[barmar]

ACBL

 

Playing in 2 sectionals recently I have been caught out twice by this. The auction starts P (1♣) alert!!, what is it?, “Precision”.

Oh dang, we have not discussed our defence to a strong club and now that the auction has started, I can't tell partner what I want to play.

 

Yes, it's my fault, I should have checked the opponent’s CC before we started.

Was the reason that you didn't check their CC because they didn't have it on the table, or simply because you forgot to do so?

 

While the players are required to have proper CCs, I don't think you should get a ruling in your favor if the infraction did not cause your problem. The opponents could be given a PP, but you don't get anything.

 

Deciding on defense to strong club and different varieties of NT should be a routine part of system discussion, you shouldn't wait until you encounter a pair playing them. Without discussion, it's pretty simple: everything is natural (double shows clubs, since that's usually the default meaning of doubling an artificial bid).

[Quantumcat]

Here you'd get into trouble not offering each opponent a copy of your correct CC at the beginning of a match. I guess all you can do is force yourself into the habit of asking for it, and if they don't have one, telling the director. The rules are definitely enforced here - once I came to a pairs event with only one CC. Our first opponents complained to the director who made us use the match time to fill out a new one.

[the hog]

"It's a PITA having to ask for your opponents card each time you sit down for a 2-3 board round."

 

Kathryn, I don't understand this comment at all. I always look at the opponents' convention card before a round. How difficult is this?

[jillybean]

Was the reason that you didn't check their CC because they didn't have it on the table, or simply because you forgot to do so?

 

It wasn't on the table, I forgot I should check each and every time. The Precision players here at the club always announce their system

so I am not used to asking.

 

 

"It's a PITA having to ask for your opponents card each time you sit down for a 2-3 board round."

 

Kathryn, I don't understand this comment at all. I always look at the opponents' convention card before a round. How difficult is this?

If it is on the table, accurate and legible, it is not difficult at all. Often it is either not on the table, ineligible or concealed.

[Mbodell]

It wasn't on the table, I forgot I should check each and every time. The Precision players here at the club always announce their system

so I am not used to asking.

 

While this is nice of them, people really shouldn't find precision scary and shouldn't require this. You should be prepared for precision (or prepared to wing it with natural, which really isn't that bad). I almost always check opponents cards in swiss matches (6-8 boards a match) or KO (12+ boards a match), but am only 50/50 of doing it in pair events. The 1♣ isn't the important one to know about ahead of time anyways, as they'll alert it if it comes up. Knowing the 1M is limited in the bidding and play, and possibly being on firm ground over 1♦, especially if it is 0+ or 1+ or even 2+, is more important IMO.

 

So I agree people should have their CC available. But with small tables, score cards on back, and a culture where many ignore it I don't think players should be faulted too much for keeping the CC on a side table, on the floor, on their seat, and/or in a pocket. Not having a CC filled out is a legitimate problem. Not putting the CC in front of the opponents without their prompting and/or not pre-alerting that you play a big club system is not a legitimate problem IMO.

[Vampyr]

I would prefer either the English or the Scottish approach to what we have here now. Although the little red guy with the pointy tail on my left shoulder is whispering to me that it won't matter - people will ignore any new rule on exchanging cards while continuing to ignore the existing requirements. "Rules are for other people, not me". :angry:

 

Why does the ACBL seem to have a general culture of ignoring regulations (Stop card, convention cards, maybe others) when other NBOs don't seem to have the problem?

[the hog]

I agree. Just call the Director if there is no convention card forthcoming after asking for it.

[helene_t]

I think it will be difficult for the director to assess the damage in this case.

 

If you had discussed a defence against the strong club you might have made some diabolic multi overcalled which might have messed up their auction so they ended up in a slam in a 2-1 fit, instead of the good slam they bid without the intervention (or with a simple natural overcall). But of course you can't adjust on such a basis.

 

The TD could in theory give them a PP. But if almost everyone fail to exchange CCs it would be unfair. Either you enforce the regulations or you don't.

[paulg]

If you do not have a convention card at the serious Scottish competitions, the Director will provide you with a completed "Simple System" convention card and say that you have to use it until you have completed your own card (on your own time).

[Vampyr]

The TD could in theory give them a PP. But if almost everyone fail to exchange CCs it would be unfair. Either you enforce the regulations or you don't.

 

Maybe. Not everyone who speeds gets a ticket; far from it -- but the possibility serves as a reasonable deterrent. Similarly, perhaps PPs given out only when the opponents complain may help change behaviour.

 

At congresses here, sometimes a director goes round the room at the beginning to make sure that every pair has two CCs. This could, in theory, be done at club games, but there may be good reasons not to do it there.

[blackshoe]

Why does the ACBL seem to have a general culture of ignoring regulations (Stop card, convention cards, maybe others) when other NBOs don't seem to have the problem?

I imagine it's a general aspect of the whole culture in the US. People don't feel obligated to obey the rules just because they're there. They'll obey out of fear of the consequences, if those are bad enough.

[ArtK78]

One time, in the first round of a 4 session ACBL NAP District Event (2 sessions qualifying to 2 session final), the opps called the TD because I had made a lead that he didn't understand. He was being silly, but that is not the point. When the TD came to the table and found that my partner did not have a filled out cc (I had the only one for the partnership) he assessed a 1/4 board procedural penalty.

 

That is the only time I have ever seen this happen.

[blackshoe]

Another point that just occurred to me. Where I play, in order to get more boards (than 24) done in the three hours available (can't extend the time, because the TD wants to leave ASAP when the game's over), TDs have shortened the time available per round. This already causes slow play (and fast play) problems. If we all take a minute or two to review opps' SC and discuss our defenses to their weird stuff, the problem will just get worse. :(

[TimG]

In ACBLland there really aren't that many different systems being played. A vast majority of players are playing some sort of Eastern Scientific or 2/1. The exceptions are generally a weak NT of some sort or a strong club of some sort. These are things that any partnership that isn't playing for the first time will have already discussed. Really, the exchanging of CC would be mostly a waste of time here.

[barmar]

I imagine it's a general aspect of the whole culture in the US. People don't feel obligated to obey the rules just because they're there. They'll obey out of fear of the consequences, if those are bad enough.

Right. The US is not a very regimented society, there's still a bit of the "Wild West" mentality in our culture.

[paulg]

In ACBLland there really aren't that many different systems being played. A vast majority of players are playing some sort of Eastern Scientific or 2/1. The exceptions are generally a weak NT of some sort or a strong club of some sort. These are things that any partnership that isn't playing for the first time will have already discussed. Really, the exchanging of CC would be mostly a waste of time here.

In my limited experience, not only is almost everyone playing the same system but they also use the same conventions (at tournament level at least): the system understanding also goes beyond the first two bids. I am constantly amazed at how detailed the agreements for pickup partnerships are. This is quite different from the UK where, even if you agreed to play Acol, you need to start the discussion with two-level opening bids.

[Gerben42]

Hi Kathryn,

 

Some points:

 

Yes, it's my fault, I should have checked the opponent’s CC before we started.

 

Yes and no. You should have discussed Precision with your partner before the tournament. Then if it comes up, you don't care. If you're in it to win it, it's worth doing this. The same is true for Weak NT opening bids. That's two things I really need to have discussed, Multi as well but in the ACBL that is probably not so important.

 

However, since this is the law I think the TD's need to enforce the requirement for each player to have a correctly completed convention card, on the table.

 

Agree! I don't mind in club tournaments, in fact I have given up and stop bringing mine as it would be the only one.

I am often a TD in such regional tournaments and I have empty convention cards for sale (yes, sorry, if you forgot to print one out yourself, you get to sponsor the organizers).

 

People leave their cards in their bags, sit on them, use them as coasters for their coffee and attach stickers to them so that they are unreadable.

 

You are not being unreasonable if you call the director if you do not find a readable or touchable (yuck!) convention card.

 

I still plan to get mine laminated when we stop making changes :)

 

I think it would be best for players to announce their system and if they fail to do so and the opponents are damaged, then have redress available.

 

I think it would be even better to REQUIRE a pre-alert for playing a blue (strong club) or red (artificial i.e. Polish, etc.) system.