Trivial, but good grief

[kenberg]

Romney last night:

"If you ask Ann and I..."

How does this happen? A guy grows up in wealth, goes to the best private schools, becomes super rich, and still has trouble with basic grammar? My father, born in Croatia and with an eighth grade education, would have said "If you ask Vernetta [My mother's name] and me..."

 

I confess that I am weak on the pluperfect, and I never really understood why a Winston could not taste good like a cigarette should (ok, "like" is a preposition not a conjunction, so I have been told) but I learned early on (maybe sixth grade?) how to differentiate the objective case from the subjective in a six word clause. This speech was written out beforehand, right? And checked?

 

Also I am pretty sure that my father would vote for Obama, but that's for another thread.

[helene_t]

This is a very common mistake in Danish and I hear it regularly in English, too, although I am obviously less observant when it comes to English.

 

Presumably Romney had a teacher who was frustrated by pupils to whom "Ann and me went shopping" sounds natural. He taught them to say "Ann and I ....". The pupils had to learn to say "Ann and I ..." even when "Ann and me ..." sounded natural to them.

 

I don't think "If you ask Ann and I ..." sounds natural to anyone (including Romney), it is a deliberate application of a misconceived rule.

 

I wonder if some people would use "If you ask Ann and I ..." despite knowing that it is incorrect, just out of fear that "Ann and me ..." might sound uneducated.

[PassedOut]

Romney last night:

"If you ask Ann and I..."

...

This speech was written out beforehand, right? And checked?

That drove me up the wall too. Most likely it wasn't checked: In speechwriting, Romney is his own tinkerer in chief

 

An English major in college, Romney is a voracious reader and is particular about the words he utters, advisers say. He obsesses and fine-tunes, for speeches consequential and trivial, on airplanes and in hotel suites. A business executive close to Romney said the candidate approaches speechwriting as he would constructing a persuasive essay.

Maybe grammar is more important to math majors than it is to English majors.

B-)

[rwbarton]

This is a very common mistake in Danish and I hear it regularly in English, too, although I am obviously less observant when it comes to English.

 

Presumably Romney had a teacher who was frustrated by pupils to whom "Ann and me went shopping" sounds natural. He taught them to say "Ann and I ....". The pupils had to learn to say "Ann and I ..." even when "Ann and me ..." sounded natural to them.

 

I don't think "If you ask Ann and I ..." sounds natural to anyone (including Romney), it is a deliberate application of a misconceived rule.

 

I wonder if some people would use "If you ask Ann and I ..." despite knowing that it is incorrect, just out of fear that "Ann and me ..." might sound uneducated.

 

The name for this phenomenon is "hypercorrection": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercorrection

[kenberg]

A very interesting article. I had heard the (claimed to be apocryphal) anecdote about Churchill, "this is the kind of tedious nonsense up with which I will not put", some sixty years ago. I still find it amusing, apocryphal or not.

 

Of immediate interest:

 

Jack Lynch, assistant professor of English at Rutgers University, claims that correction of "me and you" to "you and I" as subject leads people to "internalize the rule that 'you and I' is somehow more proper, and they end up using it in places where they shouldn't – such as 'he gave it to you and I' when it should be 'he gave it to you and me.'"^[10]

 

On the other hand, the linguists Rodney Huddleston and Geoffrey K. Pullum claim that utterances such as "They invited Sandy and I" are "heard constantly in the conversation of people whose status as speakers of Standard English is clear"; and that "Those who condemn it simply assume that the case of a pronoun in a coordination must be the same as when it stands alone. Actual usage is in conflict with this assumption."

 

I certainly do simply assume exactly that. I was taught that "If you ask Ann and I" is grammatically equivalent to "If you ask I".

 

The possibility that some authorities advocate otherwise is news to me! Anyone else? I'm never too old to learn, but this is a shock to me. It is even a shock to I.

[BunnyGo]

A very interesting article. I had heard the (claimed to be apocryphal) anecdote about Churchill, "this is the kind of tedious nonsense up with which I will not put", some sixty years ago. I still find it amusing, apocryphal or not.

 

Of immediate interest:

 

 

 

I certainly do simply assume exactly that. I was taught that "If you ask Ann and I" is grammatically equivalent to "If you ask I".

 

The possibility that some authorities advocate otherwise is news to me! Anyone else? I'm never too old to learn, but this is a shock to me. It is even a shock to I.

 

I've never once heard of an educated person condoning this ear splitting usage. I have heard them mistakenly do it, but not when thinking about it actively.

[PassedOut]

It is even a shock to I.

:D

[mycroft]

However, it is "it is Ann and I", because it is "it is I". English is weird sometimes, and it's difficult to remember the list of linking verbs (and when they're not being used as linking verbs). And from being taught this *correctly*, it is easy to hyper-correct.

[BunnyGo]

However, it is "it is Ann and I", because it is "it is I". English is weird sometimes, and it's difficult to remember the list of linking verbs (and when they're not being used as linking verbs). And from being taught this *correctly*, it is easy to hyper-correct.

 

All one must do is notice the difference between subject and object--not memorize rules.

[kenberg]

"It is I" seems natural enough to me. I think "It is me" was and is common enough to not sound weird, just wrong. So "It is Ann and I" seems equally easy.

 

But no one says "If you ask I", and so "If you ask Ann and I" seems equally wrong.

 

 

I am really interested in knowing whether the guys quoted in the Wikipedia article represent a significant segment of expert opinion. I had never heard this view before.

[VMars]

A very interesting article. I had heard the (claimed to be apocryphal) anecdote about Churchill, "this is the kind of tedious nonsense up with which I will not put", some sixty years ago. I still find it amusing, apocryphal or not.

 

Of immediate interest:

 

 

 

I certainly do simply assume exactly that. I was taught that "If you ask Ann and I" is grammatically equivalent to "If you ask I".

 

The possibility that some authorities advocate otherwise is news to me! Anyone else? I'm never too old to learn, but this is a shock to me. It is even a shock to I.

 

What I understand from that is that these linguists are of the school that thinks "if enough people think it is correct, it enters the lexicon". For example, Xerox is a brand name, but lots of people talk about "xeroxing" something. It has entered the vernacular.

 

I think that the point the linguists make is that "This belongs to Lily and I" has become such a part of Standard English speakers, that it is now considered part of Standard English. Because what is considered Standard English changes (at least in the field of linguistics).

[jonottawa]

Me probably uses I too much too. If that's your reason for not voting for Willard, you're not trying hard enough.

[Mbodell]

The possibility that some authorities advocate otherwise is news to me! Anyone else? I'm never too old to learn, but this is a shock to me. It is even a shock to I.

 

This is the difference between the prescriptive and descriptive camps. Prescriptive people have rules and are annoyed when people break them. Descriptive people are interested in what people actually do in practice and care a bit less about what some older, out of date, formal rules say. Prescriptive and descriptive folks would have different opinions about some of the following:

 

Man that assignment last week was so hard it literally killed me!

 

Somebody ate my lunch yesterday, I hope they enjoyed it!

 

If you ask Ann and I...

 

To quickly run is a joy.

 

The flowers were delivered to who?!

 

I find myself usually in the descriptive camp, but some things bug me and make me want to be more prescriptive.

[Bbradley62]

At least he didn't say "Ann and myself", which way too many people do when they're trying to sound smart.

[jjbrr]

grammar, and punctuation nits unite! you're "head" will literally explode!

 

i was lucky enough to get a very decent grammar education in second grade. i think that only could have been improved by learning a second language at around that age. oh well.

[blackshoe]

grammar, and punctuation nits unite! you're "head" will literally explode!

 

i was lucky enough to get a very decent grammar education in second grade. i think that only could have been improved by learning a second language at around that age. oh well.

Interesting. The (private) school I attend in second and third grade offered second languages. I took French. Then we moved, and I was back in the public school system (albeit a very good one). No languages until High School.

 

I regret not having studied more languages early on - although I'm not sure the school would have allowed it.

 

I'm told (by native French speakers) that my accent is pretty good, although my vocabulary is very rusty. The latter makes it a chore to read French, as well, though I can do it if I have to.

[jjbrr]

my mom speaks fluent german and my dad speaks fluent french. i fulfilled my college language requirements with german while getting a minor in latin. unfortunately my ceiling was very likely quite high, but i wasn't immersed in the right environment to take advantage of it.

 

i'd still very much like to learn another language, but it seems daunting. i hope i can shake my qualms and find some inspiration and dedication.

[kenberg]

Descriptive/prescriptive.

I am not, or at least I think I am not, unbearably fussy. I noticed, but did not cringe, when my doctor told me to lay down on the examining table. It's ok. But I still prefer to lie down. In the case of "ask Ann and I", I am confused. I assume we are not changing over to "ask I" or even, when "Ann and I" is to be replaced by a plural pronoun, to "ask we". But suppose the pronoun comes first. Example" Why wasn't Smith in on that play?" "Oh, the coach benched he and the tight end" Really? Or is it just if the pronoun is in second place : "The coach benched the tight end and he". Really I prefer "him" to "he" in either formulation. Perhaps only the first person singular has undergone this metamorphosis?

 

It all seems so pointless. A pronoun has a correct form when it is the object of a verb. Why complicate matters by switching to a different case based on some vague notion of common, or upper level common, usage? Really, whatever the credentials of the speaker, I would rather lie down than lay down. But I suppose I should not impose my preferences on he and others. Ugh. I can't stand it. Make that "on him and others".

 

Otoh, I'm fine, or at least mostly fine, with an evolving language. A friend insists that I not use email as a noun. I can email him, but I cannot send him an email. Or maybe it's the other way around. I forget. You may feel free to email me an email.

 

In short:

"Ask Ann and I" is lacking in logic and consistency. I just don't see the purpose.

 

 

 

Learning languages:

This is one of the things that I like to think I will pay more attention to in my second life. I am very primitive. A story or two:

 

I was in Seville, sometime around 1980, with my older daughter. She speaks Spanish quite well, but she was getting very tired of me saying "Ruth ask them this, Ruth ask them that".. We were going out to see a Flamenco show and got lost. A guy came along and I figured ok, I'll try. At least I will find out where we are. "Senor, por favor, como se llama esta calle?". So he told me. Then, under the impression I could actually converse, he went on much longer. A friendly guy, very nice, I had no idea what he was saying. Daughter to the rescue.

 

 

Sometime later I took the train back to Paris by myself. I met a couple who had recently moved back to Spain. Franco had died five years or so earlier and they now thought it safe to be back. Conversation was difficult but thoroughly worth the effort (well, worth it for me, I am not so sure what they got out of it).

 

I am not a big traveler but when I do travel I like to be able to talk to the people I meet, and not just the academics who speak better English than I do. That's more than enough reason to learn a language or two. My error. C'est dommage.

[phil_20686]

There is a regional division between the UK as a whole, and edinburgh/aberdeen, in the use of `Amn't I'.

 

I realise that this is a colloquial contraction, but in the rest of the UK they say `aren't I'. As in, "I'm just doing the shopping, aren't I". Anyway, one of my colleagues once challenged me on my `ungrammatical' use of Amn't I. I just started giggling: he didn't get it.

[gordontd]

There is a regional division between the UK as a whole, and edinburgh/aberdeen, in the use of `Amn't I'.

They use it in other parts of Scotland too. My aunt who lives near Glasgow (and therefore would be appalled to be thought to be from Edinburgh) says it, and my mother used to until we ridiculed her out of it when we were children.

[mycroft]

All one must do is notice the difference between subject and object--not memorize rules.

Well, that and knowing that linking verbs exist, and which ones are likely to be so, and realize that linking verbs link two words of the same class - subject and subject. Not exactly "just notice".

 

What *happens* is that people get told "it is 'It is I', not 'It's me'" - and not *why*. So they start doing it (especially when they don't want to sound common, because we all know that "it's me" is perfectly acceptable to hoi polloi); and then when another verb comes up, they don't know which way to do it (again, because they don't know *why*, with "to be" in most situations, one uses two subjects), so they correct in the same way (and get it wrong; thus "hyper-correction").

[TimG]

One that has been bothering me recently is:

 

"You do that better than me".

[kenberg]

One that has been bothering me recently is:

 

"You do that better than me".

 

Yes, but for me this comes under the heading of "There but for the grace of God go I" (or maybe "go me"?). "You prefer him to me" is correct, "You did that better then me" is incorrect, but I can understand the slip, I might well make such an error myself.

 

Many, many years back a friend signed my high school yearbook "To Ken, the kid to who I owe my English credit to". He was joking, but we can all slip up.

 

I just don't get "ask Ann and I". I can't see any reason, in grammar or in logic, for it and it is not the sort of phrasing that you learn on the street. Not on the streets of my childhood anyway. Such an error, and I still think that it is an error, has to be learned. Which of course is the point of the rwbarton post on hypercorrection, and Helene's post about similar errors in Danish.

 

I am still struck by the acceptance, in Barton's reference, of it based on "heard constantly in the conversation of people whose status as speakers of Standard English is clear" . People who should know better apparently don't know better so, not wanting to embarrass them, we will call it right?

 

I lack both the inclination and the grammatical skills to be a fussbudget, but this one really grabbed me.

[semeai]

However, it is "it is Ann and I", because it is "it is I".

"It is I" seems natural enough to me. I think "It is me" was and is common enough to not sound weird, just wrong. So "It is Ann and I" seems equally easy.

 

There's a descriptivist argument that the "oblique case" (slightly more general term than "objective case") [includes me, us, etc] can be used in the complement of a copula: "It's me." See the wikipedia link in the previous sentence, and also the ones for grammatical case and English personal pronouns.

 

 

One that has been bothering me recently is:

 

"You do that better than me".

 

This is the disjunctive case ["stressed" case]; think "moi" in French. See disjunctive pronoun. It's less controversial than using the objective/oblique case in the complement of a copula, which is arguably a special case of this (see the wikipedia article).

[BunnyGo]

"Hopefully people will learn to stop mixing up adverbs and adjectives too," he said hopefully. That one drives me nuts also, and NOBODY gets it correct.