Bid after X and raise

[jmcw]

[hv=pc=n&n=sk95432h432d32c32&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1hd2h]133|200[/hv]

 

[hv=pc=n&n=sk95432h432dk2c32&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1hd2h]133|200[/hv]

 

[hv=pc=n&n=sk932h432dkjt2ck2&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1hd2h]133|200[/hv]

 

Just checking how most would bid?.

With no great conviction, here's what I would do.

 

1. 2♠

2. 3♠

3. 3♥

[han]

2S, 3S, Double.

 

I wouldn't double when playing with Fluffy in an individual.

[aguahombre]

 

1. 2♠

2. 3♠

3. 3♥

This look about right. Number 3 is the interesting one. 3H is aggressive, but with the 30-point deck we should go for it. Not fond of a responsive double at the two-level with 4 cards in spades. Give me one less of those kings and I choose 2S, same as #1.

[han]

I realize that this is the A/I forum, but partners don't only double when they have 4 spades AND a singleton heart. Sometimes they have only 3 spades, sometimes they have a doubleton heart, sometimes they have both. And sometimes they have a heart honor. You are misleading yourself with the 30-point deck comment.

 

I don't know what the problem with the responsive double is. I will double and then bid 3S. That shows four and seems right on values. If that is too fancy for you, why don't you bid 3S? Forcing to game is just too much imo.

[aguahombre]

A simple disagreement about what a responsive double in the auction:

 

(1H) X (2H) X shows.

 

This reference, for instance, addresses the specific auction above. In different cases, a responsive double certainly must be used with 4 cards in the focus major(s).

 

Forum readers now have two styles to choose from. We happen to like the one in the reference, but with partnership discussion the extended RX could work fine.

Edited August 31, 2012 by aguahombre

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I don't know what the problem with the responsive double is.

The problem is that a Responsive DBL in this auction shows the MINORS.

 

( 1M ) - X - ( 2M ) - X = minors

 

If you have the other major ... just bid it at some level .

[han]

It was not my intention to confuse or offend anybody. Root and Pavlicek are excellent writers and their books have been greatly appreciated by beginning bridge players for many decades. I would double because I think it is best to use these doubles more flexibly, but if you are not comfortable doubling with 4 cards in the other major then please don't.

[han]

This thread reminds me of Justin's comment in another thread, "If I lead a low card, return my suit, if I lead a high card, switch".

 

There is a lot to be said for clear rules. But in my opinion there is also something to be said for flexibility, and for thinking outside of the box. I notice also in my own environment a number of older players who treat the younger generation's love for the flexible double with fear and loathing.

[jmcw]

I realize that this is the A/I forum, but partners don't only double when they have 4 spades AND a singleton heart. Sometimes they have only 3 spades, sometimes they have a doubleton heart, sometimes they have both. And sometimes they have a heart honor. You are misleading yourself with the 30-point deck comment.

 

I don't know what the problem with the responsive double is. I will double and then bid 3S. That shows four and seems right on values. If that is too fancy for you, why don't you bid 3S? Forcing to game is just too much imo.

 

The 3244 hand was a key focus of my partner's discussion last night. Assuming we X as you suggest how do you see it going from there.

[jmcw]

The problem is that a Responsive DBL in this auction shows the MINORS.

 

( 1M ) - X - ( 2M ) - X = minors

 

If you have the other major ... just bid it at some level .

 

What about 2NT, would it be good/bad here?, or some other?

[aguahombre]

What about 2NT, would it be good/bad here?, or some other?

Good question. We "beginners or old people" would use 2NT for 5+5+minors and the RX for the more balanced hands.

 

As for the 5-4's in the minors, we would RX with 3 spades and probably choose 2NT without.

Edited August 31, 2012 by aguahombre

[lalldonn]

My answers are the same as han's but I would word my support of the double even more strongly. It seems quite obvious to me, and I expect partner to bid 2♠ over it almost any time he holds four spades. If he bids 2NT to ask for a minor I will bid 3♦ (and avoiding a 4-3 spade fit at the 3 level on an auction like that is the main reason I would double, also keeping partner from needing to guess how many spades I have if I jump to 3♠ directly on this hand). If the opponents bid 3♥ on my left I can balance with 3♠ anyway. I fail to see a downside?

 

Unfortunately not every bridge book in print was written in 2012, so some of them that may even be very good have information that one might reconsider or that may not fit all sets of current agreements.

[jillybean]

edit: removed nonsense.

[Phil]

All these rules about responsive doubles LOL. Gotta fill the bridge classes somehow I suppose.

 

Here's a few...

 

- I deny FIVE spades

- I have below average ODR

- 2N is sensibly played as minors if you like

 

(preparing my syllabus now)

[Hanoi5]

I would have bid 2♠, 2♠, 3♠. I thought the double denied 4♠, but it would be much better it if didn't.

[ggwhiz]

Put me down for 2♠. 3♠ and double

 

Agreeing to use double on #3 frees up the 3♠ bid on #2 to mean "weakly invitational" ie. on shape instead of power. If I remember right, that concept was written up by Eric Kokish.

 

Not that the double on #3 would go float but if they get frisky to the 3 level pard will like knowing the difference in my hand type as well as the difference between bidding 2♠ on hands 1 AND 2 that could even have 2 fewer spades in #2.

[MrAce]

2♠

4♠

DBL

[JLOGIC]

Thanks timo, thought I was nuts reading this thread, I would bid 4S all day on hand 2. Having 3 hearts is such a huge difference from having Kxxxxx xx Kx xxx (where I'd just bid 3S), it is not only an extra winner, but it makes it that much more likely partner has a stiff heart (and makes 4333 or 43(42) impossible). I realize partner can bid his own stiff heart, but 4S is a good pressure bid, your LHO is likely to have short spades and maybe 6 hearts or maybe 5-5 or whatever and won't be sure whether to bid or not. 3S lets him get a 4m bid in or whatever, so I think there is a lot of value in bidding 4S directly even on hands where parnter will bid 4S himself after 3S.

[the hog]

2S, 3S MPS 4S IMPs, X for me.

[Antrax]

Thanks timo, thought I was nuts reading this thread, I would bid 4S all day on hand 2. Having 3 hearts is such a huge difference from having Kxxxxx xx Kx xxx (where I'd just bid 3S), it is not only an extra winner, but it makes it that much more likely partner has a stiff heart (and makes 4333 or 43(42) impossible). I realize partner can bid his own stiff heart, but 4S is a good pressure bid, your LHO is likely to have short spades and maybe 6 hearts or maybe 5-5 or whatever and won't be sure whether to bid or not. 3S lets him get a 4m bid in or whatever, so I think there is a lot of value in bidding 4S directly even on hands where parnter will bid 4S himself after 3S.

~counts the beans~

So what do you do when partner's X catches you with a 13-count and a spade suit? Do all strong hands go through a cue bid?

[Finch]

I want to weigh in on the use of double on the third hand.

On this particular auction, playing that double denies four spades is, IMO, a very bad agreement.

If you have to bid spades every time you have four of them then three things go wrong:

(i) partner won't ever raise when you have a 5-3 fit, so you have to bid more than you want to with five spades

(ii) partner undercompetes with 4-card support when you have a 9-card fit (same result as above)

(iii) you end up in a 4-3 spade fit with a hand such as Kxxx xx KJ10x Kx opposite Qxx xx Axxx AJxx (and go off instead of making a partscore) or opposite AQx x Axxxx Qxxx (where you'd like to be in 5D)

 

If, instead, double may or may not have four spades, then almost nothing can go wrong:

(i) if partner bids 2S, you bid 3C to show both minors (2NT I think should be natural-ish, but you could play x-then-2NT as minors instead) or you raise spades or you pass

(ii) if the next hand raises and partner bids 3S you do the same thing a level higher

(iii) if the next hand raises and partner passes you can double again if you want.

 

This way you don't miss a 5-3 spade fit because partner won't have 5 spades in a normal take-out double.

 

The auction 1S x 2S x is harder, there is some merit in playing that as promising 4 hearts although I prefer to play that 1S x 2S x P 2NT shows 4 hearts (so bidding a minor denies them) which also works

 

And 1H x 3H x must not deny spades, you definitely can't afford to have to bid 3S with 4 on that auction, you will play a stupid contract far too often.

[ggwhiz]

I would bid 4S all day on hand 2.

 

Fair ball but could your 3♠ bid go as low as #1 with say, a singleton? Might be a better use to invite a game OR a dive.

[phil_20686]

Thanks timo, thought I was nuts reading this thread, I would bid 4S all day on hand 2.

 

I was about to write this. I mean this is a a potentially contested auction. Are we seriously saying that we will sit 4H if they bid 4H on our left? I am close to bidding 4S on bd 1 aswell. My partner would probably do it. In fact, I would definitely do it at teams. Sure we might not have a ten card fit, but 4S might be a good sac, it might be hard for LHO to judge.

 

I vote: 4S 4S x.

I have no problem with 2S on the first one either, i dont see any other choice on hand 2 tbh, and on the third one I dont mind a cuebid if that is your style. It seems like an ok hand to force to game on. I really think 3S is a horrible distortion, and should be reserved for hands with 5 spades. Otherwise its very hard for partner to sensibly decide what do to over 4H.

[lalldonn]

I think 4♠ is too much on hand 2, call me wimpy. It seems to me like bidding partner's hand for him. If he has a singleton heart and four spades he will almost always accept the invitation. If he doesn't have one of those things he may still accept but if he rejects I think he will usually be right. If he has neither of those things then he will really need a bit extra for us to want to be in game. Blocking the opponents on the 4 level is possible but not a huge concern to me, I'd rather bid my hand as accurately as I can. Even if they do bid 4 of some minor then it only helped them if they can then smartly keep bidding on the 5 level, assuming it didn't make some important difference to how they defend which doesn't seem that likely to me.

 

Despite all those words I don't fault 4♠ that much, that was just my case for inviting. I feel like I'm being a wimp so maybe I'm letting my logic override my instincts too much. To me the one big gain of bidding 4♠ is opener might bid 5♥, which might be worth sacrificing a little accuracy to achieve.

[phil_20686]

I think 4♠ is too much on hand 2, call me wimpy. It seems to me like bidding partner's hand for him. If he has a singleton heart and four spades he will almost always accept the invitation. If he doesn't have one of those things he may still accept but if he rejects I think he will usually be right. If he has neither of those things then he will really need a bit extra for us to want to be in game. Blocking the opponents on the 4 level is possible but not a huge concern to me, I'd rather bid my hand as accurately as I can. Even if they do bid 4 of some minor then it only helped them if they can then smartly keep bidding on the 5 level, assuming it didn't make some important difference to how they defend which doesn't seem that likely to me.

 

Despite all those words I don't fault 4♠ that much, that was just my case for inviting. I feel like I'm being a wimp so maybe I'm letting my logic override my instincts too much. To me the one big gain of bidding 4♠ is opener might bid 5♥, which might be worth sacrificing a little accuracy to achieve.

 

Does that make me crazy for wanting to bid 4S on hand one then?

 

Feels like, when partner is bidding 4S, giving opener the chance to show values/second suit, by bidding 4m is actually quite a big loss. Not only will it improve their leads when they do lead vs 4S, but it will also improve their 5/4 decision making. Further, since he has 4m available, when he bids 4M it warns his partner off further competition, so opener has a good chance to control the auction. I am pretty sure on this auction, for example, that I have 3N written in as sac-suggesting, so one can focus attention on either minor, or show a hand with extra aggression without focus. DO many people play that? I would assume that after you have a major suit fit and the opponents have jump competed in their major, that playing 3N is not normally an option.