Opening 1NT with 5cM in a limited 1M system

[ulven]

Might want to check out The Bridge World, 2009, Nov issue.

[the hog]

I think everybody agrees with that. I think everybody also agrees that a limited 1M works better than an unlimited 1M. Therefore it seems obvious that opening 1M is more appealing in a limited system than in an unlimited system.

 

I would still open 1NT pretty much all the time fwiw.

 

I also disagree.

[MickyB]

I think you can assume that, by "limited", Han meant "same lower bound, but a lower upper bound". Maybe, in ten years' time, "limited" will imply 11-20 rather than 14+, but that's not the case yet. While there are auctions where I've felt I was at an advantage knowing that my oppo was limited to 15, I think Han's statement (if read as intended) is rather uncontroversial.

[glen]

I think you can assume that, by "limited", Han meant "same lower bound, but a lower upper bound". Maybe, in ten years' time, "limited" will imply 11-20 rather than 14+, but that's not the case yet. While there are auctions where I've felt I was at an advantage knowing that my oppo was limited to 15, I think Han's statement (if read as intended) is rather uncontroversial.

Fantunes 1M starts at 10/11, but not for all hand types. Perhaps then Han's statement, if read as intended, means "same lower bound, and hand types bound the same, but a lower upper bound"?

[Mbodell]

I agree with everything lalldonn wrote, but I'm still a little in the dark about what to do in the specific case I mentioned: playing a system where 1♣ is either any 17+ or 11-13 balanced, 1NT is 14-16, and you pick up a 5332 hand with a 5cM in the 11-13 range. Is this type of hand best opened 1♣ with the plan of showing a balanced 11-13 next time around, thus guaranteeing that your 1M openings are unbalanced, or is it better to open 1M, because the preemptive effect of bidding 1NT is no longer valid when you need to do a two-step to show the weak NT type hand? Obviously, with a 14-16 5332 hand, I would just open 1NT; my own (admittedly limited) experience has been the same as that of those who claim it is a big winner in the long run. But I'm just not sure how to balance the positives of treating the slightly weaker hand as a NT hand (describes the essential nature of the hand, possibly conceals the major from the defense, 5cM openings become unbalanced and thus more useful) with the negative (opening 1♣ with such hands is obviously not very preemptive, and a 5-3 major suit fit could more easily be lost in competition).

 

Maybe this is an argument not to play a two-way club system...

 

It depends a bit to me on what 1M-1nt is. If that is semi-forcing NT then opening the 11-13 1M planning to pass the semi-forcing NT isn't so bad, although I'd still consider opening 1♣ instead. If it is forcing I'd definitely open 1♣. FWIW I sometimes play 1♦ in a strong club system as either 15-17 balanced or 10-15 unbalanced (always 2+♦), and there I bid that was with 15-17 and 5M332 (although with 15 I can choose to bid 1M occasionally). I also sometimes play 1♣ as 2+ and either natural clubs or 15-19 balanced (with an opening 11+/12-14 nt) and here again I tend to open more than half my 15-17 5M332 hands 1♣ (with 17+/18-19 I tend to usually open 1M planning to raise 1NT F to 2NT). In all of these cases I haven't felt disadvantaged hiding the 1M initially (it loses some of the time and wins some of the time and seems winning overall to me).

[Zelandakh]

I think it is normal to open 1♠ with this hand type in vanilla Swedish Club (but it is not a system I play so take it with a pinch). However, in a comparable multi-way club system with a weak NT (12-14 NT and 1♣ = 15-17 bal/nat or 18+ any) I would open even ♠AKQJT/♥KQx/♦xxx/♣xx or ♠KQJTx/♥AKQ/♦xxx/♣xx with 1♣ and not consider it strange. Micky's point about being able to compete for the part-score in common auctions seems like a decent yardstick to use unless you can get bigger gains elsewhere even when giving up some small swings here.

[32519]

I still think your biggest loss comes from losing, a) the ability to make a fit jump, or b) a pre-emptive jump to 3M with a weak hand but plenty of trump support (LOTT). The ability to make a direct jump to 4M is similarly lost with a hand containing a few additional HCP and plenty of trumps.

[bluecalm]

My feeling is that opening 1NT is inferior style, however very surprisingly (to me !) Pavlicek's numbers show that to be true only for hands with spades and reverse for hands with hearts. He also has quite a sample:

http://www.rpbridge.net/9x13.htm

http://www.rpbridge.net/9x14.htm

 

It might well be that people suck at bidding with those hands and especially so after 1H or maybe preempting spades out of bidding is in fact that important.

Anyway I plan to run this query on my db later and include only reasonable players (ie top ones) in the search to see if that confirms Pavlicek's results.

[FM75]

In the strong club system that I am using, 1NT = 10-12 NV, 13-15 vul. (If dealer, you open just over 50% of hands NV, just under V)

 

The 1 club bid is 16+, So there is no overlap. 1M = 11-15. That said, we could bid 1N on xxxxx (maybe even Txxxx?) in a major. I have not seen that happen yet though (about 1 year of play), sometimes because someone has already opened.

[Gerben42]

My feeling is that opening 1NT is inferior style, however very surprisingly (to me !) Pavlicek's numbers show that to be true only for hands with spades and reverse for hands with hearts. He also has quite a sample:

http://www.rpbridge.net/9x13.htm

http://www.rpbridge.net/9x14.htm

 

It might well be that people suck at bidding with those hands and especially so after 1H or maybe preempting spades out of bidding is in fact that important.

Anyway I plan to run this query on my db later and include only reasonable players (ie top ones) in the search to see if that confirms Pavlicek's results.

 

I am not surprised about Pavlicek's numbers that opening 1NT with 5♥ is a winner but with 5♠ not. There are two points here that apply to ♥ only.

 

1. If you open 1NT, they cannot overcall 1♠

2. If you open 1♥ and partner responds 1♠, 1NT can not show 12 - 17 NT, so whatever your NT range, you are stuck with the other range to rebid something non-natural.

 

This is why I play exactly this (1NT frequently with 5♥ but not with 5♠), in fact you can use 2NT response to Stayman to show 5♥.