Drury

[rsteele]

I don't understand the aversion to Drury after a 4th seat opening. I'd play Drury opposite 1st+2nd seat openings if I knew I wouldn't pick up a GF hand with clubs, instead I have to make do with 1M:2M constructive and putting my weak raises through 1N.

 

And yes, the actual hand is an obvious Drury bid.

 

 

 

 

 

It might interest you to know that Barry Crane did use Drury after 1st and 2nd seat openers

[gwnn]

I see a couple of comments from strong players about the ability to stop in 2♥. Which is true, but why is this a consideration? Doesn't bidding 2♥ also allow us to stop in 2♥?

 

My own thoughts are that this is a 4333 9-count which is just a max 2♥ call for me. In fact with this shape and already holding the KQT of trump, I suspect that usually the fourth trump is not adding a trick. Are we really missing game that often if partner has a normal sub-invitational opener?

 

Isn't it ok to just have a max sometimes?

Responder's 2C can bear a wider range (than whatever your non-passed hand limit raise is) because there are these two sequences:

 

1H-2C

2D-2H=9-10, semi invite

 

1H-2C

2D-(not 2H)=11-12, real invite

[Trinidad]

I see a couple of comments from strong players about the ability to stop in 2♥. Which is true, but why is this a consideration? Doesn't bidding 2♥ also allow us to stop in 2♥?

 

My own thoughts are that this is a 4333 9-count which is just a max 2♥ call for me. In fact with this shape and already holding the KQT of trump, I suspect that usually the fourth trump is not adding a trick. Are we really missing game that often if partner has a normal sub-invitational opener?

 

Isn't it ok to just have a max sometimes?

Of course, it is ok to have a maximum sometimes. If you don't like your hand, you might even have more than a maximum. But I think that you aren't fully aware of what a single raise shows and what a Drury bid shows.

 

When you play Drury, you should devide the range 4-12 HCP into two parts. One part is for the single raise, the other for the Drury raise. The Drury raise can be somewhat larger since there is more bidding room. Assuming that the direct single raise will take care of the weaker range, this will leave 4-7 for the weak range and 8-12 for the Drury range.

 

Seen in that light, a 9HCP hand is a queen more than a maximum for a single raise. In fact, I think the hand is maximal for the auction:

Pass-1♥; 2♣-2♦; 2♥.

 

Rik

[aguahombre]

"leakage" comes to mind. We use 2C with a 9-10 flat to tell the table we would be accepting game tries. Maybe pard doesn't have a game try. We can show a hand which would accept game tries by accepting game tries.

[MickyB]

"leakage" comes to mind. We use 2C with a 9-10 flat to tell the table we would be accepting game tries. Maybe pard doesn't have a game try. We can show a hand which would accept game tries by accepting game tries.

 

And who knows, maybe if you bid 1H:2H, 3C:2H on a hand where I'd bid 1H:2H, P, oppo will accept it. You'll still have told the table about opener's clubs though. What were you saying about "leakage"?

[kenrexford]

Fine. So in real life you use 3 fit showing jumps as well as a non forcing "forcing 1NT" for hands were others just bid Drury.

 

Rik

 

Not at all. Not sure why you keep getting this part off.

 

With a fit and non-constructive (maybe 5 to a bad 7 HCP), I bid semi-forcing 1NT.

 

With a fit and constructive, I raise.

 

With a fit and better than constructive, I must be unbalanced to have not opened, such that I always will have a fit bid of some type.

 

I would never bid 1NT with a fit with a hand where others would bid Drury.

 

 

So, my way I tell partner what I have. Your way, you use an artificial bid to delay telling him, taking away the natural and useful meaning. On hands where you would bid Drury and then pass, I simply raise.

[kenrexford]

It might interest you to know that Barry Crane did use Drury after 1st and 2nd seat openers

 

 

That makes more sense to me than after 4th seat openings, BTW.

[kenrexford]

Of course, it is ok to have a maximum sometimes. If you don't like your hand, you might even have more than a maximum. But I think that you aren't fully aware of what a single raise shows and what a Drury bid shows.

 

When you play Drury, you should devide the range 4-12 HCP into two parts. One part is for the single raise, the other for the Drury raise. The Drury raise can be somewhat larger since there is more bidding room. Assuming that the direct single raise will take care of the weaker range, this will leave 4-7 for the weak range and 8-12 for the Drury range.

 

Seen in that light, a 9HCP hand is a queen more than a maximum for a single raise. In fact, I think the hand is maximal for the auction:

Pass-1♥; 2♣-2♦; 2♥.

 

Rik

 

A 4-12 range? I divide part of that (11-12) into not having passed earlier. So, now your range is 4-10. Of course, if you add in distribution, you get back to 4-12, perhaps.

 

But, you are missing something, namely the fit-jump.

[aguahombre]

And who knows, maybe if you bid 1H:2H, 3C:2H on a hand where I'd bid 1H:2H, P, oppo will accept it. You'll still have told the table about opener's clubs though. What were you saying about "leakage"?

I don't understand the part about insufficient bids, but I don't need to. I suppose if partner makes a certain type of game try, there will be leakage depending on what your different tries look like. However, if you agree to perpetrate Drury with this hand you will have to employ some methods of trying for game by opener anyway since you don't have a game try, yourself --- which will result in leakage.

[kenrexford]

I mean, isn't this really simple?

 

With 5-7, Drury folks beat non-Drury to 2♥.

With 8-10, non-Drury folks beat Drury folks to 2♥.

With 11+ because of shape, non-Drury folks get to the point via fit jumps faster than the Drury folks.

 

With club hands, non-Drury folks have no problems, but Drury folks bid 1NT and have major problems.

 

Drury folks gain when they get to do whatever their jump shifts show, if they show something useful that cannot be shown as effectively by a 2/1.

[MickyB]

I don't understand the part about insufficient bids, but I don't need to. I suppose if partner makes a certain type of game try, there will be leakage depending on what your different tries look like. However, if you agree to perpetrate Drury with this hand you will have to employ some methods of trying for game by opener anyway since you don't have a game try, yourself --- which will result in leakage.

 

I was ever-so-subtly pointing out that 1H:2H, 3C:3H will result in going off in part-score more often than 1H:2C!, 2D!:2H.

 

Last post itt

[CSGibson]

... When I think limit raise I think 8 LTC and expect partner to play me for that strength. So my gut reaction with this hand, which is 9 LTC, is to just bid 2♥...

 

I've never understood this LTC opposite LTC evaluation. It seems neither accurate nor intuitive. I much prefer LTC opposite cover cards when you have a known fit.

 

For example, opposite heart opening hand, this hand has at least 3 "sure" covers - the KQ of trump and the outside ace are known to be working, assuming no voids (which seems reasonable). This hand might even cover a 3rd round spade loser, but that is more of a subtle adjustment, rather than an outright cover for me. Either way, if partner has a 5 or 6 loser hand, I definitely want to be in game. If he has a 7 loser hand, he won't typically accept a limit raise, but I might want to be in game anyway depending on the spade position.