Rebid after takeout double

[quiddity]

In the auction:

(1S) P (1N) X

(P) 2H (2S) ?

 

where 1N was forcing and could be extremely light,

 

What would you bid with:

- a game try with 4 hearts

- an 18-point 3343 with spades stopped

- an 18-point 2344 with two small spades, or a strong 13(54)

- a very strong hand with a single minor (are there any hands in this category which start with double?)

 

Thanks!

[lalldonn]

Game try: I bid 3♥ or I stretch to bid game. To me 3♥ is something extra but not like a 20 count inviting game, with that just bid game.

Hand I was planning to rebid notrump: Rebid (2) notrump.

Extras without four hearts or a spade stopper or a long minor: Double

Extras with a long minor: Bid the minor

[han]

You make it sound so easy jdonn! ;)

[JLOGIC]

I think you can double with 4 hearts and a game try here if you can stand a pass (though I agree with jdonn that 3H shows extras). If partner bids 2N and you bid 3H he knows what's up. If he bids 3m and you bid 3H he does not know what's up as you rate to have 3 hearts and not the minor, but he will still be playing you for like an 18 count with 3 hearts and will generally get you to game when it's right.

 

My basic point is that partner with a hand good enough to play game opposite a strong hand with 3 hearts will make a strong move over your second double like 3S, 4m or 4H or 3N, and you can always play 4H then. This is sometimes preferable than 3H or 4H opposite such a wide range.

 

But, partner will pass pretty aggressively, so with a stiff S I go 3H or 4H.

[JLOGIC]

I admit what I just wrote is somewhat of a mastermind, and violates general bidding rules that you cannot X with a primary fit a second time and what jdonn said is standard. However, it is a trick I use sometimes since I will get the info of whether to play game or not more accurately than just guessing to bid 4, or bidding 3 which might be a 5431 good 14 or 15 (which is extras to me sry guys!).

[lalldonn]

jdonn didn't post in this thread, lalldonn did

[lalldonn]

Seriously I could see conflicting agreements here where you want double to be both your game try (like a maximal double) especially if they are in the suit below like 1♥ x p 1♠ 3♥ or something, and to be your 'extras without four hearts' hand. But the second has to take precedence IMO because it's so impossible to bid if you can't double with it. With a fit you can always just raise to some appropriate level and not be too wrong.

[gnasher]

The simplest solution is to play 2NT as an invitational raise. That's more common than a strong balanced hand, and with the balanced hand you can usually get away with doubling again.