What does the Double show?

[SteveMoe]

[hv=d=e&v=e&b=6&a=1dp1hp2dd]133|100[/hv]

 

2/1 context. 2♦ rebid likely on 6...

 

The coffeehousing discussion has identified 2 or 3 possibilities:

 

1) Constructive black suit takeout - too weak to double or overcall at first...

2) Opening hand (+) takeout of ♥, unable/unwilling to overcall ♠ on a 4-card suit, penalty overtones toward ♦

3) 4=4=4=1 or 4=4=3=2 with constructive or opening (+) values.

 

What would expert standard suggest? What do you think South holds?

 

Regards,

Steve

[helene_t]

take-out. four spades and 4 clubs (or 5 bad ones). Presumably not three hearts due to the failure to make a t/o double on first round, hence usually three diamonds but could be two. I don't think it should be a hand too weak for a t/o double in first round.

[dkham]

A takeout bid showing the black suits, couldn't bid first time. Something like

 

♠KQxx ♥xx ♦xx ♣ AQxxx

[ahydra]

A takeout bid showing the black suits, couldn't bid first time. Something like

 

♠KQxx ♥xx ♦xx ♣ AQxxx

 

Would one not bid 2C with that first time?

 

This feels to me like a prebalancing action, especially given the vul - some sort of J10xx Kxx xx AQxx or something.

 

ahydra

[Phil]

4-5 blacks or so. I need a reason to bid here since I am entering a live auction.

 

Some old timers might think this is a penalty x.

[sailoranch]

Would one not bid 2C with that first time?

 

This feels to me like a prebalancing action, especially given the vul - some sort of J10xx Kxx xx AQxx or something.

 

ahydra

 

I would not. There are only five clubs, and the suit quality is lacking for a two-level overcall. Plus we have xx in their suit.

 

But styles vary, and 1♦ - (2♣) is always a pain for the opponents, as it takes away tons of bidding room and makes LHO's double nebulous.

[neilkaz]

Take out for me and didn't bid the first time since my 4 card suit isn't good enough to o/c and I don't have enough ♥ to make me feel comfortable doubling initially.

[SteveMoe]

A takeout bid showing the black suits, couldn't bid first time. Something like

 

♠KQxx ♥xx ♦xx ♣ AQxxx

 

Would some overcall 1♠ with this hand?

[sailoranch]

Would some overcall 1♠ with this hand?

 

Link

[gszes]

it makes no sense to x 2d for penalty--if opps wish to stop in 2d thats great for us

the only thing a penalty x will accomplish is to give them every reason to hunt around

for a safer spot. The x here is a much more valuable tool as tox for the black suits

preferably a nicely distributed 55 weakish hand similar to

 

Qxxxx xx x Kxxxx we could have more tame distribution but then we would need more

power to compensate with a hand like KJTx xx xxx KQJx.

[SteveMoe]

Link

Thanks Neil!

[ggwhiz]

There are a lot of hands that have to pass 1♦ but want to get involved now. Always 4 spades, not of the quality for an overcall and clubs.

 

Could be looking to defend 3 of something instead of 2 or finding a profitable sacrifice opposite somthing like 5 spades, a stiff club and not much.

[Quantumcat]

it makes no sense to x 2d for penalty--if opps wish to stop in 2d thats great for us

the only thing a penalty x will accomplish is to give them every reason to hunt around

for a safer spot.

Also if they were about to bid something like 1♦ 1♥ 2♦ 2NT 3NT, now they can safely not bother (for a tight 3NT to make, presumably they need good things happening in diamonds, so if 2♦ doesn't make neither will NT).

 

However what about the auction

(1♣) P (1♥) P

(2♣) P P X

 

If you wanted to make a takeout for spades and diamonds, you could have doubled previously. So would this be a penalty double?

[Antrax]

Couldn't you just want to keep the auction alive once you know your RHO is limited?

[aguahombre]

Couldn't you just want to keep the auction alive once you know your RHO is limited?

No. Not likely that with a hand which couldn't overcall the first time, a partner who also couldn't(twice), and a probable misfit for the opponents ---that we would all of a sudden decide to stick our noses into it successfully.

[han]

Aquahombre, which do you think is more likely, a penalty double of 2C, or a hand like

 

AQxx

Q10xxx

KQx

x

 

Or would you not want to double 2C with this if it was takeout?

[jmcw]

Would some overcall 1♠ with this hand?

 

 

You asked what expert standard would be.

Didn't see any of them suggest this :)

[aguahombre]

Aquahombre, which do you think is more likely, a penalty double of 2C, or a hand like

 

AQxx

Q10xxx

KQx

x

 

Or would you not want to double 2C with this if it was takeout?

(1c) P (1H) P

(2C) P (P) ? to me.

 

The hand you give is more likely than a hand which would want to double underneath the club bidder for penalty. I wouldn't want to act at all with either of the two. If I wanted to double (with one more diamond, one less heart) I would have done so in the sandwich spot.

[WellSpyder]

Some old timers might think this is a penalty x.

Yep, that's me. I must admit that is what I would tend to assume with a decent partner, too, unless we had discussed some alternative, but I see from this thread that I had better be careful about making that assumption...

[aguahombre]

4-5 blacks or so. I need a reason to bid here since I am entering a live auction.

 

Some old timers might think this is a penalty x.

Back when Phil posted, he was dealing with Steve's original auction, not the off-shoots. In that situation, 4-5 blacks with a very strong concentration of strength in this live auction would be what allowed old timers to get to be old. Penalty is just too remote as a possibility, and even if it should come up we would probably do fine defending at a buck a trick.

[semeai]

I like the rule for this sort of situation that a double is takeout unless "The doubler passed up an opportunity to make a takeout double earlier and is not balancing at the 2-level and no new suit has been bid," as I suggested in the defaults for doubles thread.

 

That would make (for me):

 

1D P 1H P; 2D X takeout

1D P 1N P; 2D X penalty

1D P 1H P: 2D P P X takeout

[Quantumcat]

So pre-balancing is excluded?

 

Good to have a solid rule with your partner so you always know which is which :-)

[aguahombre]

This thread does not have prebalancing situations.

[Quantumcat]

This thread does not have prebalancing situations.

a double is takeout unless...is not balancing at the 2-level...

1D P 1N P; 2D X penalty

This should teach me to use quotes when reply to people :-)

[PetteriLem]

1♦ - P - 1♥ - P;

2♦ - X= punishment for me. I mean a seriously good hand with long diamonds. I dont like any of the takeout double options, because the opponents are unlimited and have not shown fit. Although I would choose option 1, if I have to pick one; at least I am trying to show a playable spot for us.