ATB

[gnasher]

I think that 3NT is not specific about hand-type. I dislike the suggestion that with a balanced 19-count we should bid 2NT then 3NT, for two reasons:

- Opener might have only three clubs, and responder will often have only four, so it doesn't really work to play 2NT as forcing.

- It gives away a lot of information, which could be costly either in the play or in helping the opponents to judge whether to save.

 

I think responder assumes that pass is forcing, but opener might overrule him by passing out 4♠. That applies in all situations where it looks as though pass should be forcing, but the first player to call is limited and we've already decided not to play in slam.

 

Presumably South was expecting four clubs opposite. I think that makes it quite risky to defend 4♠ - those red-suit honours might not be taking any tricks at all in defence. Hence I would bid 5♣ partly to make and partly in case 4♠ is making.

[gnasher]

or do you play 5533 and not consider 3 short as many Brits would ?

He plays 15-17, 5-card majors, 3-card minors, 1♣ with xx33. So does almost all of North America. And so does anyone who posts a problem in this forum without specifying a system (assuming the system is relevant).

[bluecalm]

I've just been yelling at cyberyeti for assuming his own system, and I ran out of energy.

 

Sorry I assumed you do play that I thought people in Netherlands generally do and I assumed too much.

 

. I don't know how it is in Poland

 

Traditionally everybody played NFB's. Now transfer became popular but standard are still nfb's. Nobody heard about 2D being forcing with diamonds here :)

 

I would've opened 2NT

 

I always thought opening 2N with those hands is a price you pay for the rest of the system (no way to bid that in standard, awkward in precision). My guess is that you play something better than American Standard and have some way to bid strong hand with clubs after 1/1.

 

does not compute, or do you play 5533 and not consider 3 short as many Brits would ?

 

You are not up to bridge lingo. "Short" means "possibly 2" in this context.

 

I dislike the suggestion that with a balanced 19-count we should bid 2NT then 3NT, for two reasons:

- Opener might have only three clubs, and responder will often have only four, so it doesn't really work to play 2NT as forcing.

 

I am unable to understand it. Nobody is suggesting 2N should be forcing to 3C or w/e. It's just 18-19 balanced. How does it not work ? Partner just raises to 3N barring some extreme hand. I like the suggestion that 3N should be 18-19 and 2N should promise 6+clubs. I think saying which hand type you have (6clubs or 18-19 balanced) is very important.

In fact it's so important in competition that many elite partnership (all Italian pairs) removed 18-19 balanced from their 1C opening altogether. We don't have that in standard so let's at least have some agreements like:

dbl = strong hands which doesn't fit elsewhere

2N = clubs + stopper

3S = clubs + shortness

3N = 18-19bal

 

or w/e to allow us to compete in clubs if necessary.

[Phil]

I think that 3NT is not specific about hand-type. I dislike the suggestion that with a balanced 19-count we should bid 2NT then 3NT, for two reasons:

- Opener might have only three clubs, and responder will often have only four, so it doesn't really work to play 2NT as forcing.

- It gives away a lot of information, which could be costly either in the play or in helping the opponents to judge whether to save.

 

If its a good balanced 19, we might have opened 2N. With 17(+) - 19(-), I don't mind rebidding a non-forcing 2N, because if partner passes its probably the right place.

 

It feels wrong to lump a heavy 2N rebid into 3N, because the hand with a trick source is potentially slammish, while a flat 19 is not.

 

MickyB's suggestion is really best - inverting 2N and 3N (I think I made a similar suggestion a few months ago). Occasionally you'll overbid to a bad game, but you have the entire 3 level to explore if you like.

[helene_t]

does not compute, or do you play 5533 and not consider 3 short as many Brits would ?

You are a troll

[Cyberyeti]

You are a troll

I seriously resent that, anything shorter than 4 is short to a goodly percentage of Brits where comparatively few people play 5 card majors. When I was learning bridge 35 years ago, nobody played a 2 card club and a 3 card club was called "prepared" or "phony" and decidedly short and abnormal. Admittedly in the expert forum now maybe not, but I still think of short as <4 ie shorter than your longest suit.

[Flem72]

[hv=pc=n&s=sa4hkjdq42cakqt54&n=s3h984dak853c9762&d=s&v=0&b=1&a=1c1s2c2s3n4sppdppp]266|200[/hv]

 

We defended 4S doubled for +100, while 6C was cold.

 

Did 3NT show long strong clubs or could it be balanced 18-19?

 

Was pass forcing?

 

Who should have bid differently?

 

I think X is bad b/c there are likely no C tricks, so you're looking at a S, a H and 1/3 a D in your own hand. They are likely to hold all other S cards; if you plan to set 4S, partner must contribute something in H & D. P is, I assume, 6-10 support and could hold S stiff and KD or S dbl and AD, AH or KD & QH or any combo. Give P 8ish support and the worst is something like KD, QH and S stiff. I hope I'd bid 5C, which shows both values (after 3N) and suit quality -- P should wake up and take it home with those tricks.

[JLOGIC]

Justin, it was argued to me afterwards that 3NT should show this kind of hand, and that with a balanced 18-19 one should bid 2NT first (forcing, often invitational), and then 3NT. What do you think about this?

 

Also, would you investigate slam after this start of the auction?

 

I am highly opposed to not being able to jump to game when partner is limited and our degree of fit is known and I know what contract I want to play. I mean, if I had 19 or 18 with 5 clubs, I don't see why I should not be able to place the contract.

 

That hand would know it would want to play 3N. A hand with long solid clubs that might have slam/want to play 5C jumping to 3N does not make that much sense to me, why would that not be the hand to bid 2N forcing and then follow up with something like 3S or 3H (or, if partner bids 3D over it, investigate further?). Intuitively, it makes sense to me to bid 2N when you are not sure about the contract yet, as you leave more room for investigation. I find it backwards to bid 3N when we might want to play something else, and 2N when we know we are always bidding 3N.

 

That said if south judged that 3N was the contract and that he didn't want to investigate 5 or 6 clubs, he can bid 3N. I think I would bid 2N with the south hand but I might be biased from seeing the actual hand.

[han]

The BBF forums is still a great place to learn about bridge. Thanks for all the wonderful responses!

[gnasher]

Nobody is suggesting 2N should be forcing to 3C or w/e.

 

See post #11.

 

[bluecalm]

Intuitively, it makes sense to me to bid 2N when you are not sure about the contract yet, as you leave more room for investigation. I find it backwards to bid 3N when we might want to play something else, and 2N when we know we are always bidding 3N.

 

I like bidding 3N with 18-19 bal but then imo we should bid 2N with 6+clubs even if we are always bidding 3N after.

The reason is that they might bid 4S and then partner needs that information. I am not buying arguments about leaking info to them as it doesn't matter. They are leading a spade no matter what and either we have 9 tricks or we don't. The layout of clubs will be apparent anyway once we play to trick 2.

[MrAce]

 

 

I think responder assumes that pass is forcing, but opener might overrule him by passing out 4♠. That applies in all situations where it looks as though pass should be forcing, but the first player to call is limited and we've already decided not to play in slam.

 

 

I like this about the forcing pass of a limited hand. Especially if this limit is the mimimum range of responder. ( 6-9 or w/e in your choosen system)

[helene_t]

I find it backwards to bid 3N when we might want to play something else, and 2N when we know we are always bidding 3N.

But with the balanced 18-19 we are less afraid of opps disturbing us while with the long club suit it may pay to show our hand immediately.

[twoshy]

I seriously resent that, anything shorter than 4 is short to a goodly percentage of Brits where comparatively few people play 5 card majors. When I was learning bridge 35 years ago, nobody played a 2 card club and a 3 card club was called "prepared" or "phony" and decidedly short and abnormal. Admittedly in the expert forum now maybe not, but I still think of short as <4 ie shorter than your longest suit.

 

And if you learned bridge 35 years ago in China, when everybody played Precision, and every natural system was considered abnormal, you might have thought of "short club" as 16+?

 

C'mon mate, you've been around these forums for long enough...

[Lurpoa]

Then say what you're playing if you're not interested in other systems, I assume some 5542 strong no trump if it's an American posting, but not when it's a European. I didn't know how many clubs you promised or what your no trump was (I haven't met a lot of Dutch players, but none of them played 15-17).

 

I'm just so used to a 2+ card club being alerted, that if a European doesn't alert it I assume they're not playing one.

 

I've also been told off FOR assuming everybody plays 5542 strong so I don't any more.

 

As to whether the pass over 4♠ is forcing, it depends what 2♣ shows and what other raises you have available (particularly what 3♣ is). If 2♣ guarantees a 5 or 6 count, I think it should be forcing.

 

My point asking about 2N rather than 3N was the one Phil raised, playing it Leb style to allow 2 ways of bidding several hands is good here and I wasn't sure if this was standard. I also agree with him in that I learn a lot from how people handle these hands in systems I don't play, and I appreciate the strengths and weaknesses of such systems from this (and when is the best time to throw a spanner in the works).

 

Cyber...

I understand...

I admire, your combativeness.

Take care !