ATB

[han]

[hv=pc=n&s=sa4hkjdq42cakqt54&n=s3h984dak853c9762&d=s&v=0&b=1&a=1c1s2c2s3n4sppdppp]266|200[/hv]

 

We defended 4S doubled for +100, while 6C was cold.

 

Did 3NT show long strong clubs or could it be balanced 18-19?

 

Was pass forcing?

 

Who should have bid differently?

[Cyberyeti]

Being the maniacs that we are we'd probably have bid 1♣(showing 4+ of them)-(1♠)-3♦(fit) and been off to the races, but with a potentially short club it's a lot more awkward.

 

What is 2N by S over 2♠ ? I think there's a case for not playing it nat inv here in which case you may be able to get some more definition in theory, but in practice this will depend on whether W bids 3♠ or 4.

 

I might also have opened 2N with the S hand which would work fine with our methods.

[Phil]

2N should be 18-19. 3N should be a source of tricks.

 

The South hand evaluates nicely. Surely its at least a 2N opening if not a 22. Neither help you reach 6m.

[JLOGIC]

3N is to play. Partner has a relatively small limited range, we have no major suit fit, we should be allowed to just set the contract. This is not the same as when partner is unlimited.

 

I mean, doubling when partner passes 4S is just astonishingly bad to me with Ax of spades and 6 solid clubs.

 

Now, failing to get to 6C is a different issue, but that is clearly the fault of the 3N bid. I don't understand bidding "carefully" and opening 1C if you're not even going to try for a club slam when you get a club raise, but that's a different story (and needless to say, I would open 2N).

 

I do not see how north could bid differently. He raises clubs, then passes with only 4 clubs and no club honor and short spades and reasonably good D and O (depending on partners diamond length I guess).

 

I am inferring that south argued that he showed long clubs for 3N but I just don't understand that. I am on the same page as north.

[SteveMoe]

Unfortunate how the auction developed. I too prefer a fit jump 3♦ for North.

 

Adding slightly to what Phil and Cyberyeti have already said, if not playing fit jumps I would prefer the auction to develop as:

1♣ - 1♠ - 2♦ - 2♠

2N (18-19) - 4♠ - 5♣ - Pass

6♣ - All Pass

 

The natural 2♦ freebid adds to south's hand.

5♣ should be on 7-8 losers.

South has 4-losers and expects North to have 9 minor suit cards.

[JLOGIC]

You guys would not raise to 2C? Wow, well done, 2D (or 3D!) is the perfect bid to get you to slam nice. It's fine to overbid by a queen or a king (or even more!) if you are cold for slam and off an ace, but in the real world you just get too high. You have a 7 count with 4 small clubs.

[JLOGIC]

I mean, 3D????? LOL. Yeah our hand is good enough to force to 4m or 3N, no problem, we got a 7 count opposite a frequent weak NT, and 4 small in support of his 3 small + card suit, what could go wrong? Usually we will get to slam opposite Qxx of diamonds, 6 solid clubs, and a 19 count with no spade wastage opposite our stiff. Aint no thang but a chicken wang

[mike777]

as a nonexpert I think this hand is hard really hard.

 

I would open 2nt but I dont think that solves this deal.

 

fwiw finding minor suit slams can be tough in standard/2/1 compared to strong club auctions.

 

 

I suppose:

 

 

2nt=3s(mss?)

4c=4s(short)

6c?

 

 

but all of that really feels double dummy

[SteveMoe]

You guys would not raise to 2C? Wow, well done, 2D (or 3D!) is the perfect bid to get you to slam nice. It's fine to overbid by a queen or a king (or even more!) if you are cold for slam and off an ace, but in the real world you just get too high. You have a 7 count with 4 small clubs.

Optimistic? Yes, but...I see an 8-loser raise with 10 Support Points and Good ♦.

[Hanoi5]

I think South should bid 5♣ over 4♠. I'm not sure pass is forcing, though.

[han]

Justin, it was argued to me afterwards that 3NT should show this kind of hand, and that with a balanced 18-19 one should bid 2NT first (forcing, often invitational), and then 3NT. What do you think about this?

 

Also, would you investigate slam after this start of the auction?

[Cyberyeti]

I mean, 3D????? LOL. Yeah our hand is good enough to force to 4m or 3N, no problem, we got a 7 count opposite a frequent weak NT, and 4 small in support of his 3 small + card suit, what could go wrong? Usually we will get to slam opposite Qxx of diamonds, 6 solid clubs, and a 19 count with no spade wastage opposite our stiff. Aint no thang but a chicken wang

YOU have a possible weak no trump opposite, I don't (as I indicated by saying the club showed 4 for us and indicating it's more awkward if it doesn't), I play a weak no trump, so partner has either 4414 (so rarely we ignore the possibility initially), 5 clubs or 15+. The hand held is rock bottom minimum for the fit jump, but not worse than that by our methods. The reason for bidding it is much more to help partner to gauge whether to bid 5♣ over 4♠ than to bid slams.

[lowerline]

I think you can only get to six if South opens 2nt... However I don't agree with defending 4♠. 5♣ seems clear to me.

 

Steven

[MrAce]

YOU have a possible weak no trump opposite, I don't (as I indicated by saying the club showed 4 for us and indicating it's more awkward if it doesn't), I play a weak no trump, so partner has either 4414 (so rarely we ignore the possibility initially), 5 clubs or 15+. The hand held is rock bottom minimum for the fit jump, but not worse than that by our methods. The reason for bidding it is much more to help partner to gauge whether to bid 5♣ over 4♠ than to bid slams.

 

 

I really don't like (to put it the polite way) replies which starts with or includes " FOR US" words. It doesnt' really mean anything to anybody unless our last name is something like Rodwell, Gittelman, Duboin or something. Then i would be more interested in knowing the methods which obviously have a role in the success.

 

Perhaps it is time for us to create BBF standarts and reply accordingly unless OP gives us their specific agreements, at least in expert forum. This allows all of us to debate about the LOGIC part of the problems ( i don't know others but i find it more interesting and educational especially with some top players regularly writing in these forums) instead of how this particular hand or problem fits well to our private system or not. (which i find very boring by the way)

 

Seriously, did you really think OP would have asked this question, or would think that it is a problem hand for NS that worths to post in forums, had he played 1♣ showing 5+ most of the time ? Or did you really think the replies which assumes 1♣ showing 5+ contribute anything if at all to this topic ? Cmon now .... :)

 

Rant...Rant...Rant...Harr..harr..Harr ( just ignore my rant bro, it can be the specific day of the month for me :P )

[han]

I agree with MrAce, it's not much of interest to me what people would do playing a very different system.

 

If people would comment on the question of whether pass of 4S was forcing then I'd be very grateful.

[phil_20686]

I have never in my life bid 3N to make and then allowed the opponents to play undoubled. :)

 

Maybe that is a bit of an overbid, but seriously, how can this not be a FP situation? Either you have a double or you have a massive fit. I mean, partner raised your only possible suit, and then you lumped 3N?

 

South should bid I think, esp at imps. Partners seldom raise 1c to 2c here on balanced hands, if he was some 3334 with Qxx spades he can either pass or bid 1N depending on his strength. Moreover, north has made a FP, and south has poor defence for a 3N bid.

 

I also think that this should be a lebensohl situation, so partner can bid 3C competitively and to show 14-16 inv to 3N with clubs. That gives you two ways to bid 3N, so maybe a jump can be clubs and through lebensohl can be 18-19 balanced or something. Never really thought about it too much.

 

PS: I disagree with Mr Ace, I have learned a lot about methods from peoples random interjections on threads. FWIW, when I played acol I would have made a fit jump with the north hand too. Its obviously a completely different situation in acol though.

[helene_t]

Yes pass is forcing, I am surprised this can be an issue. We be game (to make) after all.

[Cyberyeti]

I agree with MrAce, it's not much of interest to me what people would do playing a very different system.

 

If people would comment on the question of whether pass of 4S was forcing then I'd be very grateful.

Then say what you're playing if you're not interested in other systems, I assume some 5542 strong no trump if it's an American posting, but not when it's a European. I didn't know how many clubs you promised or what your no trump was (I haven't met a lot of Dutch players, but none of them played 15-17).

 

I'm just so used to a 2+ card club being alerted, that if a European doesn't alert it I assume they're not playing one.

 

I've also been told off FOR assuming everybody plays 5542 strong so I don't any more.

 

As to whether the pass over 4♠ is forcing, it depends what 2♣ shows and what other raises you have available (particularly what 3♣ is). If 2♣ guarantees a 5 or 6 count, I think it should be forcing.

 

My point asking about 2N rather than 3N was the one Phil raised, playing it Leb style to allow 2 ways of bidding several hands is good here and I wasn't sure if this was standard. I also agree with him in that I learn a lot from how people handle these hands in systems I don't play, and I appreciate the strengths and weaknesses of such systems from this (and when is the best time to throw a spanner in the works).

[han]

We play 5-card majors, strong notrump. Seriously, if it was anything else I would have told you. If we had played something relevant like a 2D opening showing 18-19 balanced, I would also have told you. If I have to specify that we do not play this 2D opening, these forums become very cumbersome. As at least 95% of posters here regard strong notrumps and 5-card majors as "standard", even though they might not play it themselves, it seems convenient to assume that that's the system unless specified otherwise.

 

To clarify my position, I appreciate suggestions for methods, especially if they are relevant methods that we might want to adopt. But answering in a completely different system is not useful. Given that you didn't even state that you were answering in a weak notrump context, your comment just seemed absurd.

[han]

Then say what you're playing, I assume if it's an American posting, but not when it's a European.

 

You are very unfair, but I don't know if you are trying to insult Americans, Europeans, or you are just trying to blame me. In any case, there are a lot of Europeans that post here, including a couple of very good players. None of them seem to have any problems responding in context, and some also like to point out how they would deal with the problems with their own agreements. I don't see why you can't do the same.

 

If you feel that weak notrumpers and fit-jumpers are being discriminated against, please take it elsewhere.

[bluecalm]

Imo:

 

-3N shows long clubs + stopper and partne is strongly advised to not remove it. We would bid 2N with 18-19.

-pass after 4S is forcing as we showed a lot of points

-we have easy bid after 4S but what that bid is I do not know (5C/4N/6C)

-I guess you don't play nfb's because then 2D would be perfect

-I don't like 2C, partner could have 2 clubs. Bidding 3C or 3D is madness.

 

I am inferring that south argued that he showed long clubs for 3N but I just don't understand that

 

What else ? You bid 2N with 18=19, right ? Or maybe if you bid 3N with 18-19 then 2N should show long clubs. One or the other, playing both as potentially being balanced hands is very bad. Even without it bidding this 18-19 balanced in competition is a nightmare because many bids (most doubles, 3N if we are at 3level) doesn't show clubs now which hurts.

[han]

-I guess you don't play nfb's because then 2D would be perfect

 

No, we play that 2D shows hearts and 2H shows diamonds. I don't know how it is in Poland, but my impression is that almost all Dutch top players play something like this, and none play negative freebids. (I don't mean to suggest that I am a Dutch top player)

 

-I don't like 2C, partner could have 2 clubs. Bidding 3C or 3D is madness.

 

I've just been yelling at cyberyeti for assuming his own system, and I ran out of energy. Perhaps needless to say we don't play that 1C is short, and I would have told you if we did.

 

If you do play that 1C is short and you bid with this hand anymore, then it seems to me that you are paying a heavy price.

[MickyB]

Pass is forcing.

 

I don't see why 3N here should deny a balanced 18-19. If both 2N and 3N are forcing it would make more sense to bid 3N with the balanced hand and 2N with the unbalanced hand. Obviously, this means I find that South is to blame.

 

I would've opened 2NT, and I would like to think that we would reach slam after partner responds 3S showing spade shortage.

[Cyberyeti]

You are very unfair, but I don't know if you are trying to insult Americans, Europeans, or you are just trying to blame me. In any case, there are a lot of Europeans that post here, including a couple of very good players. None of them seem to have any problems responding in context, and some also like to point out how they would deal with the problems with their own agreements. I don't see why you can't do the same.

 

I'm not insulting anybody, most Americans play 5542 strong or something so different they'd have to tell you about it, Europeans play a much wider variety of systems and no trumps. I stated in one line in my OP what I'd have done and why in my system, then moved on to your auction for the rest. I actually think that the last line of my original post is the key here, 1♣ in a 5542 system is horribly overloaded, so if I have any sensible option of opening something else like 2N, I would take it and bid this as 20-21 balanced, I think you're too good for 18-19.

 

I then gave Justin a snarky response because he replied to the bit that was clearly "in my system" and replied using the bid meanings from his.

 

Many posters put 2/1 or whatever in the extra line that comes below the thread title when you create it.

 

If you feel that weak notrumpers and fit-jumpers are being discriminated against, please take it elsewhere.

 

I don't, I get a little bored of the same thread appearing over and over which amounts to "we opened a 2 card club and didn't find our club contract when opps interfered", but sometimes you have bad hands for your system (I know the bent version of Acol I play has several, usually we have bids that cover everything but are wider range than they are for most people so we over/underbid occasionally), and finding out what other systems do better with them can lead you to finding solutions or just realising you're going to get stuffed on certain hand types, but you reckon it's rarely enough that you ignore it.

 

Edit: crossed posts with you

 

Perhaps needless to say we don't play that 1C is short, and I would have told you if we did.

We play 5-card majors, strong notrump.

 

does not compute, or do you play 5533 and not consider 3 short as many Brits would ?

[mfa1010]

Pass to 4♠ was clearly forcing. I think S could have 18-19 bal or long clubs here. It looks wrong to double 4♠. To add one minor thing that has not been mentioned: with only 2 hearts S can see that opps have a heart fit on the side, and this should on average scare him further away from double.

 

I like to read about other systems and how they handle the problems posted, btw.