the_clown Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 I would have passed. Partner opened third seat, (in my understanding can be quite light) and will have another chance to bid if he really has a good hand. After that I still can do something encouraging right? I cant imagine that partner will sell out to 2m with 18-19 bal or something similar. I dont mind defending anything they bid. Only positive thing about 1♠ is that it is lead directing. I wouldnt be happy if S doubles 1♠ for penalty holding 4♠ and then we concede silly 500/800 only because partner decided to open a bit lighter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyman Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Only positive thing about 1♠ is that it is lead directing. ...and that we accurately describe our hand so that we might find the right strain...and that by showing positive values we might bid a game...and that we don't leave partner guessing when 1Hx comes back to him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMoe Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 You have a normal spade suit, playable even if spades split 4-1.You have no great desire to play 1♥ doubled, which might happen if you pass.You have a desire for a spade lead should LHO bid something. So, what on earth is the issue?!?!?Not an issue - an opportunity...1♠ is F1R. 1N is not. Do you want to play 1N from your side or 2♥ opposite say 1=6=34? We'll only find a minor when opener is 54. I am expecting Opener and LHO to hold no more than 5 ♠s, so I do not expect us to play in ♠s. Indeed, LHO advancer might insert 2♠ over my 1N - might be juicy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sailoranch Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Resulting: If we pass, aren't opps likely to bid and make 2♠ on the actual cards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggwhiz Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 we're probably better off defending. On a spade lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_clown Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 ...and that we accurately describe our hand so that we might find the right strain...and that by showing positive values we might bid a game...and that we don't leave partner guessing when 1Hx comes back to him 1. I think that in most cases there is no right strain, if we bid now we may get too high on a misfit hand. Partner will rarely 4 spades and even if he has 2S on a 4-1 break will not work out too well.2. If partner has a good hand he will bid again. (If they bid 2m, he will surely double with good hand a singleton or 18-19 bal and a doubleton. If they bid a suit where he has 3 cards and 18-19 bal thats just bad luck). And even if we miss a game once in a while thats ok in MP, because when we dont lead a game I think that passing leaves us in a much better position.3. South who is passed hand will rarely be able to pass the double he needs some values and some good hearts. Partner is sitting over the hearts so even playing 1Hx should not always produce a bad score. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_clown Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 On a spade lead. Depends what they are playing. Against some minor suit contract I will try to collect as many H ruffs as I can. Should S bid 3N I can still double for a ♠ lead......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_clown Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Not an issue - an opportunity...1♠ is F1R. 1N is not. Do you want to play 1N from your side or 2♥ opposite say 1=6=34? We'll only find a minor when opener is 54. I am expecting Opener and LHO to hold no more than 5 ♠s, so I do not expect us to play in ♠s. Indeed, LHO advancer might insert 2♠ over my 1N - might be juicy... Ho can 1♠ be round force if I am a passed hand? + if partner opened light in 3rd seat there is a fair chance that they will X you in 1NT and you have nowhere to go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Ho can 1♠ be round force if I am a passed hand? + if partner opened light in 3rd seat there is a fair chance that they will X you in 1NT and you have nowhere to goThere is something to be said for third seat players who don't screw around and won't pass 1/1. Things are definitely different opposite people who are hyperactive. Not bidding 1♠ might gain when he actually has clowned; and it is wrong when he had a legitimate opening bid and gets no help from responder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Do you really think that downgrading a misfit 7-count is masterminding? Yes I also think that it is completely ridiculous masterminding. I don't really expect many bad things to happen after bidding 1S. About the worst is partner rebidding 1NT or 2H and playing there, no big deal. But if we don't bid 1S, partner will have a harder time on defense, and if they bid 2m it will be hard for us to get to spades if we belong there. Give partner a 13-count 4-5-2-2 distribution and the opponents bid 2C or 2D. I think we're done with if we don't respond 1S now. There's no reason to make bridge this difficult. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiddity Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Yes I also think that it is completely ridiculous masterminding. I don't really expect many bad things to happen after bidding 1S. About the worst is partner rebidding 1NT or 2H and playing there, no big deal. But if we don't bid 1S, partner will have a harder time on defense, and if they bid 2m it will be hard for us to get to spades if we belong there. Give partner a 13-count 4-5-2-2 distribution and the opponents bid 2C or 2D. I think we're done with if we don't respond 1S now. There's no reason to make bridge this difficult. That's an unfortunate distribution for us but letting the opps play their vul 7 card fit doesn't have to be wrong. Maybe both contracts are down. But I agree, it's probably bad. I wonder how likely it is for partner to have 4 spades and be unable to make a competitive double. Probably not very likely. And it seems like playing 1N or 2H when wrong could be a big deal at matchpoints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Do you think that partner should double 2D on a 13-count when he is 4-5-1-3? I wouldn't if my partner couldn't bid over 1H. If my partner has passed and I make a takeout double in direct seat, I have extra values. 1H - Dbl - p - 2DDbl = takeout, extra values. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiddity Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Do you think that partner should double 2D on a 13-count when he is 4-5-1-3? I wouldn't if my partner couldn't bid over 1H. If my partner has passed and I make a takeout double in direct seat, I have extra values. 1H - Dbl - p - 2DDbl = takeout, extra values. Yes, I think he should. I don't think he needs significant extras to double with that shape. Even if responder has a 5 count we don't want to let them play 2D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiddity Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Its really not close. You could still easily be making game in spades: Axxx Axxxx KQx A. Or you could be making 3N opposite 18-19 balanced. Passing here is bizarre. There is just so much upside here. I'm confident that the downside of partner having a 1NT or heart rebid far outweighs the upside of partner having a 17 count with 4 spades, three aces and a stiff club. I'm pretty confident that, as far as getting to the optimal contract is concerned, passing is best at this vul. Opener is just too likely to have a weak notrump or a long heart suit. It's quite possible that what I gain in the bidding I would lose in the play because of misdefense or a bad lead or something. Maybe bidding is right for that reason. I don't have the necessary experience to weigh these factors and be confident of the best approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 I'm confident that the downside of partner having a 1NT or heart rebid far outweighs the upside of partner having a 17 count with 4 spades, three aces and a stiff club. You know 1♠ isn't forcing, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiddity Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 You know 1♠ isn't forcing, right? How is that relevant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 How is that relevant? Because earlier you said: I'm confident that the downside of partner having a 1NT or heart rebid far outweighs the upside of partner having a 17 count with 4 spades, three aces and a stiff club. which seems to ignore the possibility that partner can pass 1♠ with many of the weak NT type hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiddity Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think that's relevant. Bidding 1S prevents us from defending when it is right to do so. That's the downside I was referring to. Making 1S is still worth less than beating the opponents in 1N or 2m. Going down in 1S is costlier than allowing the opponents to make 1N or 2m. I'm assuming that playing in the 7 card fit will not provide an extra trick on average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_20686 Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 I'm confident that the downside of partner having a 1NT or heart rebid far outweighs the upside of partner having a 17 count with 4 spades, three aces and a stiff club. I'm pretty confident that, as far as getting to the optimal contract is concerned, passing is best at this vul. Opener is just too likely to have a weak notrump or a long heart suit. Why do I not want to play in 1NT? I have a seven count. Sure, maybe we have a misfit, but maybe we don't. Even if we do, partner could have: Ax Q9xxx KQx Qxx, a perfectly ordinary 1N rebid, and 1N looks like a prettu decent spot. Complex hand to analyse, but on, say a club lead, you are close to cold? Or partner could just have pretty much any hand with three spades. Suppose it goes P P back to partner with south making a penalty pass. Is he meant to magically pull with a 3514 shape? 1S is a hugely better spot than 1H doubled in that case. It seems Really Bad to pass 1H x. You could concede 500 with two spades making, or go off in one heart with 1N cold, or if they run you could fail to compete in your seven or eight card spade fit. Passing is a huge error. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Because earlier you said: which seems to ignore the possibility that partner can pass 1♠ with many of the weak NT type hands.Your partner can. We check that silly box on the CC which says new suit at the 1-level is forcing over a double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Your partner can. We check that silly box on the CC which says new suit at the 1-level is forcing over a double. And you can too! We're a passed hand. Ain't life awesome? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiddity Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Why do I not want to play in 1NT? I have a seven count. Sure, maybe we have a misfit, but maybe we don't. Even if we do, partner could have: Ax Q9xxx KQx Qxx, a perfectly ordinary 1N rebid, and 1N looks like a prettu decent spot. Complex hand to analyse, but on, say a club lead, you are close to cold? Or partner could just have pretty much any hand with three spades. Suppose it goes P P back to partner with south making a penalty pass. Is he meant to magically pull with a 3514 shape? 1S is a hugely better spot than 1H doubled in that case. It seems Really Bad to pass 1H x. You could concede 500 with two spades making, or go off in one heart with 1N cold, or if they run you could fail to compete in your seven or eight card spade fit. Passing is a huge error. You do not want to play in 1NT because you are "guaranteed" to get a better score by defending 1NT. Obviously this is ignoring declarer advantage, first lead advantage, etc. I suspect that many times when LHO is planning a penalty pass, partner can and will run. But I don't have a ton of experience with such sequences. I suppose you would pass if the hand were slightly weaker and LHO can still have the same penalty pass. Honestly the "huge error" thing strikes me as ridiculous. We're talking about downgrading by a jack in the face of a misfit and adverse vulnerability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antrax Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 About the side discussion: is your response not 1♠ if partner opens in first seat? How important is it whether 1♠ is forcing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_clown Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 About the side discussion: is your response not 1♠ if partner opens in first seat? How important is it whether 1♠ is forcing? If partner opened in first seat I will respond but not because it is forcing, but because I am sure he has his opening bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_20686 Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 You do not want to play in 1NT because you are "guaranteed" to get a better score by defending 1NT. In real life, when the points are balanced, you would always rather play 1N than defend it. Hence the trope about the "race to 1N". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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