SAYC - ????

[RunemPard]

Hello,

 

Just a topic regarding SAYC. Never really bothered to pay attention to this, but after noticing it, I thought I would ask here. Was playing a hand w/ a random BBO partner where the following auction occurred.

 

1♥-2♣

2♦-2♥

 

In my mind, this would be a stronger hand looking to play at the game level or higher with ♥ support. The BBO SAYC says that this is the 10-11 variant. And...

 

1♥-2♣

2♦-3♥

 

Would be a hand too good for a limit bid inviting to game. Possibly a nice 4 card support, useful singleton, or whatever.

 

So...I suppose my main thing to ask is...Why is it the way it is? My thinking was that if we may have a slam hand, we should keep the bidding lower. If we are playing J2NT, then I most likely have a singleton to show and would want to do so at a lower level? Typically when I bid 2/1 w/ support to partner's major then I am highly interested in trying game, even more so at IMPs.

 

Thanks for the help,

 

Don

[awm]

In SAYC, 1♥-3♥ is a limit raise with 3+ card support. There aren't any "invitational hands with fit" that start with a 2/1 bid.

 

The sequence 1♥-2♣-2♦-2♥ shows normally 2-card support with 10-11. You want to stop low on these hands, and 2♥ will often be a better partial than 2NT (especially from responder's side when he is weak in the fourth suit, spades). It would be silly to bid 3♥ and force yourself to play at the three-level in a seven card fit after all.

 

Of course, you need a way to show a game force with three-card support (1♥-2NT jacoby shows four). This hand starts with a 2/1 and bids 3♥ next.

 

While certainly there is some advantage in keeping the auction as low as possible on a fitting game force, SAYC prioritizes stopping low and in a good spot on invitational hands over starting your slam auctions at the two-level. Note that the hands that bid 1♥-2♣-2♦-2♥ are quite difficult to bid in (for example) 2/1 where you start with 1NT; your sequence will be 1♥-1NT-2♦, at which point you are forced to bid 2NT (since 2♥ is a weaker hand). At this point both partners have shown less about their shape (responder didn't show clubs, opener didn't really show diamonds since 1NT was forcing, responder didn't show his heart doubleton and never guaranteed/denied control of spades), and you are about to play an inferior partial if opener passes. It's really quite a big difference!

[aguahombre]

Adam, as mentioned before, is our resident expert on the Yellow Card. As always, he covers the question well.

 

Your ideas about what agreements a system should have are certainly valid for any regular partnership you develope. SAYC is for two people who will just read it and have something in common to use. "Why?" is not particularly important when we use SAYC for a pickup...or in an individual tourney where it is a "given". We just blindly do it and hope partner has read the Card also.

 

BTW: AWM makes an excellent point about hands where an invitation in NT will be declined ---the point being that the 5-2 major fit will often play better at the 2-level than 2NT will.

[awm]

BTW: AWM makes an excellent point about hands where an invitation in NT will be declined ---the point being that the 5-2 major fit will often play better at the 2-level than 2NT will.

 

Further, when the invite is accepted, protecting our holding in the 4th suit from the lead may well win a game swing. The SAYC sequence allows us to play 3nt by opener when we prefer, whereas the 2/1 sequence obviously does not.

[aguahombre]

Further, when the invite is accepted, protecting our holding in the 4th suit from the lead may well win a game swing. The SAYC sequence allows us to play 3nt by opener when we prefer, whereas the 2/1 sequence obviously does not.

Yes, another subtle point. I assume I can quote you: "It is hard to play notrump from opener's side when the first response is a forcing NT."

[ArtK78]

Yes, another subtle point. I assume I can quote you: "It is hard to play notrump from opener's side when the first response is a forcing NT."

I would say that "hard" is an underbid.

[Quartic]

Yes, another subtle point. I assume I can quote you: "It is hard to play notrump from opener's side when the first response is a forcing NT."

I would say that "hard" is an underbid.

All you need is a lead out of turn! ;)

[Quantumcat]

It is also common to play that 1♥ 3♥ shows four hearts as well as an invitation. Therefore your second auction would show an invitation with four or more clubs and three hearts.

[aguahombre]

In SAYC, 1♥-3♥ is a limit raise with 3+ card support. There aren't any "invitational hands with fit" that start with a 2/1 bid.

 

It is also common to play that 1♥ 3♥ shows four hearts as well as an invitation. Therefore your second auction would show an invitation with four or more clubs and three hearts.

Unless you are using the Yellow Card, which happens to be what they allegedly are doing in this thread.

[Quantumcat]

Unless you are using the Yellow Card, which happens to be what they allegedly are doing in this thread.

Oh sorry, I don't even know what the Yellow Card is. I always thought SAYC and Standard were synonyms. I'll try not to reply to posts about SAYC in future, thanks.

[aguahombre]

Here is the SAYC System booklet.

 

The top portion explains its intended use.