4th suit

[BunnyGo]

I was playing pickup with Jillybean today (no discussion of system) and we had a misunderstanding about the following auction (no interference):

 

1C-1D

1H-2S

 

and

 

1C-1D

1H-1S

 

How do you play these in your regular partnerships? How would you expect a pickup partner (of any of I/A/E caliber) to take these auctions?

 

What if you've agreed on 4th suit forcing?

[JonnyQuest]

Undiscussed (my understanding)......2♠ is the GF bid and 1♠ is natural and a 1 round force.

 

4th Suit Forcing

 

Forum Discussion - 4SF

 

I know some who play 1♠ as a GF...so, I am sure we will se alternative interpretations...

 

:o

[TWO4BRIDGE]

One method I've picked up is :

1C-1D

1H-1S! = GF, may be artificial

 

Now,let's say Opener has 4 cards ♠and he continues with 2S :

2S - ??

......3S = 4 cards ♠ but ANY other bid denies 4 cards ♠:

......2NT/3C/3D = denies 4 cards ♠

 

The real utility of this method is when Opener does NOT have 4 cards ♠:

1C - 1D

1H - 1S!

2C - 3C = now Responder can show his real intention of ♣ support at a relatively low-level.

 

If 2S!-jump were the artificial GF, Responder might have to show ♣ support at the 4-level:

1C - 1D

1H - 2S!

3C - 4C

[kriegel]

Playing Walsh style, where you bypass diamonds unless you have a game force, you can play:

1♣ - 1♦

1♥ - 1♠ as 4th suit forcing, and

.... - 2♠ as natural, game-forcing with spades and diamonds (akin to a responder's reverse)

[mike777]

playing walsh style you can play 1s as natural and gf with 5+d, with less you start with 1s not 1d.

 

 

Layer on xyz and 2d over 1h becomes your art gf, 2c is art and invite or for weakish hands with long D.

 

 

2s can be a splinter showing short spades, gf, 5+d and 4h, granted a rare bid.

 

Of course responder cannot bid 2c to play over 1h but you can play in 3c.

 

---

 

 

with no discussion I am just bidding natural over 1s or 2s whatever pard means by it...dont pass. :)

[Siegmund]

Undiscussed, I would expect partner to take 1S as FSF (it does very little harm if he misunderstands -- he is going to bid again naturally anyway), and I would never bid 2S with a pickup partner.

 

Having this one-off exception to FSF is an odd quirk I've seen repeatedly on the forums the last few years but don't see in real life.

[jmcw]

1♠ is 4th suit forcing GF

 

2♠ is a jump rebid natural and GF

 

Whats the difference? 4SF typically denies 4spades and may be starting a slammish sequence.

[awm]

It depends on whether you play Walsh style responses (i.e. would responder bypass a five-card diamond suit to bid 1♠ over 1♣ with less than game values).

 

If you don't play Walsh and would normally bid up the line, then you need a way to find your 4-4 spade fits when responder is less than game force. In this case, 1♠ should be natural (since 2♠ is obviously a strong bid). The 1♠ bid is forcing one round with 4+ spades. Then 2♠ becomes an artificial game forcing call.

 

If you do play Walsh, then opener's 1♥ rebid shows an unbalanced hand. Responder won't have four spades unless he's game forcing, and you're not that likely to have a 4-4 spade fit in any case. Both 1♠ and 2♠ should be game forcing (one is 4th suit GF without spades, the other shows 4+♠ and 5+♦ and GF). It's better in this case to play that 1♠ is the artificial game force (and 2♠ shows spades), since that hand is more common and you need the space to work out strain and slam prospects.

[P_Marlowe]

to be discussed.

 

It makes sense to play 1S as natural, but in a Walsh context,

playing 1S as FSF is also reasonable.

 

1S has quite often a double meaning, also a common agreement.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[CSGibson]

I've played it both ways (always GF, but sometimes 1♠ showing natural spades, sometimes 2♠). I would not make any assumption, natural or not, opposite an expert partner undiscussed because I don't know that one has a vast majority following over the other, though I suspect that 1♠ artificial and forcing is the more popular agreement.

[aguahombre]

Then, there are some of us who use 2♠ as a heart splinter and don't care whether partner thinks 1♠ is natural or not. The nature of the 4sf will be disclosed after opener's natural descriptive next call.

 

This is within the Walsh framework, of course...where 1H by opener was unbalanced. One thing the 1S 4sf bid will not have is 4-card heart support.

[rsteele]

I was playing pickup with Jillybean today (no discussion of system) and we had a misunderstanding about the following auction (no interference):

 

1C-1D

1H-2S

 

and

 

1C-1D

1H-1S

 

How do you play these in your regular partnerships? How would you expect a pickup partner (of any of I/A/E caliber) to take these auctions?

 

What if you've agreed on 4th suit forcing?

[rsteele]

With a pick-up pard I assume up the line responses so I play one spade as natural and 2S as 4th suit. If, however, playing Walsh Pard will not have a 4 cd spade suit when he responds one diamond so one spade may have alternative meanings. To make matters worse you don't know if the 4th suit is a game force or a one round force. Get a regular pd and avoid these problems.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

..... playing Walsh Pard will not have a 4 cd spade suit when he responds one diamond so one spade may have alternative meanings.

??

If I understand Walsh correctly:

-- If responder has GF values, 4 cards ♠ and longer ♦, he will respond 1D first....

.... but if he has less than GF values, he will respond 1S first.

[Cyberyeti]

Then, there are some of us who use 2♠ as a heart splinter and don't care whether partner thinks 1♠ is natural or not. The nature of the 4sf will be disclosed after opener's natural descriptive next call.

 

This is within the Walsh framework, of course...where 1H by opener was unbalanced. One thing the 1S 4sf bid will not have is 4-card heart support.

We do this in Acol where 1♣-1♦-1♥ is 5+/4+. We also only play 1♠ as F1 not FG.

[aguahombre]

??

If I understand Walsh correctly:

-- If responder has GF values, 4 cards ♠ and longer ♦, he will respond 1D first....

.... but if he has less than GF values, he will respond 1S first.

You understand it correctly. But, there are those who haven't captured that very important distinction; they just know they bypass 1D to bid a major, and will maybe eventually realize it should be different with game-forcing values.

[aguahombre]

We do this in Acol where 1♣-1♦-1♥ is 5+/4+. We also only play 1♠ as F1 not FG.

I don't know the nuances of Acol; but with our Walsh style, the inferences of the auction which got us to:

1c-1D

1H-1S make it absolutely necessary that the bid be FG.

[Cyberyeti]

I don't know the nuances of Acol; but with our Walsh style, the inferences of the auction which got us to:

1c-1D

1H-1S make it absolutely necessary that the bid be FG.

Yup, because I suspect your 1N rebid is weak so you bid 1♠ on most weakish 5♦/4♠.

 

In the bent acol variant we play the 1N rebid is 15-bad 19, so we only bid the spades first if intending to pass that.

 

Also 1♣-1♦-1♥ can only have 4 spades in a 4414/4405 so we basically ignore that possibility although we'll catch up if opener has a good hand.

[Zelandakh]

My understanding of standard modern English Acol is that the 1♠ bid is natural, F1 and 2♠ is 4SF. The most common responding style I have seen is to bid diamonds with 10+ and the major with less. I would not like to call this a standard though since there are lots of regional variations in Acolland.