unmitigated disaster

[sceptic]

[hv=d=s&v=e&n=saqht5dak9cj76543&w=skt9753hkj84dt6ct&e=sj8h972dqj832cakq&s=s642haq63d754c982]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     -     -     Pass

 Pass  1♣    Dbl   1♥

 4♠    Dbl   Pass  Pass

 Pass  

 

OK you may have guessed by now, I bid 4 spades, what do you think of our bids

[myfish]

i think the X make little sense.....

i would like to bid 1♦ instead

 

4♠ is fine for me,especially at IMP vul........

[sceptic]

I will defend my 4 spade bid by saying,

 

I expected my p to be short in clubs, I expected not much in the way of HCP in hearts, but I did expect HCP in diamonds and hopefully at least Qxx spades

 

I thought my heart holding was excellent and would help me in the play amd the club singleton to be a bonus

[myfish]

I would certainly bid 4♠ at the table too :)

the X is horrible,always X with this will led to a 4-2♠ fit

[pbleighton]

X was terrible, IMO, but some people like off-shape doubles.

 

4S depends on what you can expect from pd in spades after a double. If he will only double with 2 spades here with a big hand (which you know from the bidding he doesn't have), then 4S is arguable given the vulnerability and scoring, though I would have settled for 3S. If your pd likes off-shape doubles, 1S is the bid.

 

Peter

[HeartA]

dbl is horrible. I would simply overcall 1♦.

[Laird]

Hi Steve

 

nothing wrong with your reasoning that I can see..... the double caused the problem.... change 2 of the top clubs into spades and another of the 3 suits and its a much better prospect. 2!D or even a nt bid would better show the pattern of your partners hand....

 

John

[Fluffy]

I was taught to auto bid 4 when having 6 card suit and partner doubled, here you even have a good side ♥ suit.

[helene_t]

I think I would have opened 2♠, but pass is ok.

 

For the rest I agree with the other posters.

[inquiry]

Develop a bidding concept and have your partner sign on to it. Mine is shape first, points later... so my takeout doubles are "shape specific". Short in their suit, support of other suits (i use a number of two suit overcalls, including raptor or polish 1NT). Support for other suits mean 3 cards to an honor or 4 cards...

 

One might stretch this support for other suits.. i made takeout double last night of 1♣ holding 4-4 in the majors but a doubleton KQ of diamonds. But I expect partner to stretch to bid a major, so, the doubleotn diamond wasn't that bid a concern.. i would never double if the KQ doubleton had been in a major.

 

Let's look at your partner hand.. what violates doube?

1) a doubleton spade - elminates doouble for me

2) three SMALL hearts, - all but eliminates double for me even if I had four spades

3) AKQ in their suit. Partenr will think I am short and weak in their suit (imagine if we move these honors to other suits.. move queen to spades, move ace to hearts move king to diamonds.. hand becomes (QJ Axx KQJxx xxx).. now how does 4♠ look?

4) Partner was a passed hand and I have 13 points including 9 in THEIR suit. I am way more likely to bid 2♦ weak jump overcall under these conditions (partner has passed) than anything else, with 1♦ a distant second almost tied with pass.

 

4♠ with you hand seems perfectly reasonable...

[nikos59]

The double is criminal.

With a minimum hand and only A QUEEN AND A JACK

(sorry for the capital case but it is unbelievable!)

outside the enemy suit, a double is extraterrestrial.

It is not merely a question of shape. This hand is

also inadequate value-wise. I would call it a 4-point hand.

 

Your 4P is eminently correct.

I only find one fault at your bidding:

not having opened 2S as dealer.

 

I know that you have four hearts but if you peruse play

records from championships, you'll see all the champions

opening 2S with four hearts (except the French).

Whoever passes this West hand, must have a share

of the blame for whatever happens next.

 

Nikos

[jtfanclub]

Double is terrible...I'd rather pass than double. (I'd rather bid 1♦ than pass, but maybe that has a conventional meaning in your system).

 

Note, though, that this is nowhere near as bad as it looks, disaster or not. Give partner just a slightly stronger hand:

 

♠J8

♥JT2

♦A9832

♣AKQ

 

And now 4 spades makes all night. Heck, it may make 5.

I don't think many people will double with that hand either, though it's closer.

 

My point is that 4♠ is clearly the right bid. Even if your partner is stretching a little you should still have good play for the hand.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

On an unrelated note, it really bugs me when people start a post with "whose fault is it". It's just not the right mindset to take. Sometimes the right bid gets you a -800.

 

An example from an earlier thread: 1♦ (2♣) P P.

 

Ron and quite a few others were arguing that you should double with short clubs, regardless of strength.

 

Sometimes, that's a disaster. Maybe the 2♣ bidder has a max and now they find their game (or slam). Maybe your partner has 3-3-2-5 distribution and no offensive tricks and you're going to go -4 doubled.

 

If you're an expert, you laugh about it and go onto the next hand. The fact that a bid will on rare occassions lead to an impressive bottom shouldn't stop you from using it.

 

But if you're a beginner, this is horrible. You each start blaming the other, recriminations abound, and you start questioning your system. The next time it comes up, you try to 'correct' your system, it leads to a bad result, and now things get worse.

 

The sooner you get away from "whose fault", and into "how can we do this better", the better off you'll be.

 

And the sooner you can stop requiring reopening doubles to show extra strength :D

[pclayton]

JT:

 

You better get the Bridge World on the line then. One of their articles is called: "Assign the Blame".

 

But I see your point. I'm all for a kinder and gentler BBF. :D

[EricK]

Most "who is to blame" threads are really "I am fairly sure my partner is to blame, can you confirm it" threads.

 

And these can be useful. If partner does not realise that he has made an error then he will never change (he will probably never change anyway, but that is another story). Experts can afford to shrug their shoulders and move on whenever they get -800 because even if they have made a mistake, they will realise they have made it.

 

Eric

[the hog]

X is idiotic. 4S is reasonable though there are waring signs. Nth figures to be short on this auction and a H lead and h ruff should not come as too much of a surprise. I'd probably still bid 4 though.

[helium]

the X was from an other world. 4 ♠ was fine imho.

And i woulnt open 2♠ eather.(becose i have 4 nice ♥)

 

 

kenneth

[dogsbreath]

Hi

I agree entirely with 'jtfanclub' ..you'll get more out of your p when he/she thinks there are only 2 opponents at the table :D If y have a regular p, y should discuss yr bidding 'style' ..then X's like this wont happen OR y will be aware that it's possible. Also agree that opening 2S is the modern style tho I dont care much for it myself.

Rgds Dog

[Gerben47]

This double should not happen. Ever. This is not a partnership agreement. THIS IS CRIMINAL. Really. AARGH.

 

Unless you are strong enough to rebid NT (showing 19+) you NEVER EVER double with only two cards in an unbid major. This hand shows you why.

[mpefritz]

Obviously double makes little sense to anyone posting. There are real live players who double with ANY opening hand. That makes bidding with them very very hard, but that is their "style". There are many long-time players who bid like this. They often do not do well at club games, but that's how they learned to bid, and they will continue to do so.

 

If this is a regular partner, discuss what takeout doubles mean and how this doesn't seem to fit into what you think the partnership bidding should be.

 

If this is not a regular partner, just make note of the bidding style. Maybe they thought of it as a penalty double, holding AKQ of clubs OR maybe they double with all opening counts. Just remember in case you run into them in an INDY.

 

fritz

[sceptic]

OK, 2 things, it was a pick up p.

 

That is the reason I never bid 2 spades (I am fed up with people berating me for opening a weak two with a 4 card major.

 

 

But I see your point. I'm all for a kinder and gentler BBF.

 

I don't believe you said that hahahahaha (just joking)