jillybean Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 [hv=pc=n&s=sajt84h8dt95caq95&w=skq7hkqt5432d87ct&n=s962hadkj632cj876&e=s53hj976daq4ck432&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1s3h3s4h4sppp]399|300[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BunnyGo Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 Bidding 4 spades seems a little pushy to me, but it works here as all finesses work for the opponents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 Bidding 4 spades seems a little pushy to me, but it works here as all finesses work for the opponents. If I was partnering myself, I think I'd be -420. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gszes Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 not sure what your agreements about preempts are but 3h seems off target here.This hand has a lot of playing potential and kqx of spades behind opener gives thehand some defensive potential also. I would bid 2h. we cannot predict the biddingafter that so lets get back to the original bidding. The only "unlimited" hand at the table is opener. 3h limits w 3s limits n and e 4h bid can be almost anything. The 4s bid can be made with authority knowing the opps will haveprecious little reason to x and if rho x the oppd of making 4s tend to go up drmaticallysince any finesses will work. 4s is a 2 way bid 1 it may well make and 2 it is at worst a small insurance policy vs 4h. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 Would have overcalled 2♥ rather than 3 which would have resulted in 4♠ being doubled I think. 3 finesses are wrong in 4♠, the club position is lucky, on average luck both contracts might make, but one probably should so I want to bid 4♠. It's just possible both contracts are -1 but at teams that's not that expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 Bidding 4 spades seems a little pushy to me, but it works here as all finesses work for the opponents. Which finesses are working for opponents ? I mean you commented as if 4♠ would be a bad decision had their finesses not work, which is not neccesarilly true... He bids 4♠ rightly or wrongly, his double spade finesse loses, his ♦ finesse loses and he goes down 1 in 4♠. :) I admit friendly club split in 4♠ doesnt have an impact when they play in hearts but still... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BunnyGo Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 Which finesses are working for opponents ? I mean you commented as if 4♠ would be a bad decision had their finesses not work, which is not neccesarilly true... He bids 4♠ rightly or wrongly, his double spade finesse loses, his ♦ finesse loses and he goes down 1 in 4♠. :) I admit friendly club split in 4♠ doesnt have an impact when they play in hearts but still... The diamond K is in the slot, and the spade A is onside, and one cannot help but make 4 hearts. I wouldn't bid 4♠, but it's a great sac as it turns out. Especially undoubled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 The diamond K is in the slot, and the spade A is onside, and one cannot help but make 4 hearts. I wouldn't bid 4♠, but it's a great sac as it turns out. Especially undoubled. Yes i understand that, i was trying to say "If their ♦ finesse didnt work then your side will be making 4♠ due to losing only 1 ♦. So their ♦ finesse working makes it a good sacrifice while if their finesse didnt work it would make 4♠ a good game to play and make. NOTE : i am not advocating the 4♠ bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahydra Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 I would have bid 1S (4cM, weak NT)-2H-X-2S (good H raise)p-4H all p Find 4S very pushy - though, as others have pointed out, it works well here. The thing is that from N's point of view, 4S is nowhere near making and 4H may just go off. ahydra 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Comments:1)I believe Jilly plays 5cM.2)3H by West/1S is wrong.3)3S by North/3H is on the wimpy side. (see thread where a decent L.R. would bid 4S).4)4S by South is certainly pushy, but maybe he knows North is a wimp.5)Anyone want to guess what would have happened if North bid 4S/3H? Same result or better for N/S? If it started: 1S (2H) 3H (4H) Then a good thing could happen for E/W --playing at 4H for instance, since neither North nor South has another call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Comments:2)3H by West/1S is wrong.I think "wrong" is wrong. Perhaps not your style, but not "wrong". 3)3S by North/3H is on the wimpy side. (see thread where a decent L.R. would bid 4S).I don't think 3♠ is wimpy. With a four-card limit raise, I would understand just bidding 4♠. 5)Anyone want to guess what would have happened if North bid 4S/3H? Same result or better for N/S?North could have bid 4♠ over 4♥ if you're just looking for results. If it started: 1S (2H) 3H (4H) Then a good thing could happen for E/W --playing at 4H for instance, since neither North nor South has another call.South took another call opposite the actual competitive raise, why not opposite the limit raise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 So, that means you disagree. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted August 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 The 3♥ bid is mine. I know it's not perfect but 2♥ doesn't seem right either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 The 3♥ bid is mine. I know it's not perfect but 2♥ doesn't seem right either. I think it is important to be on the same page as your partner when it comes to preempts. I doubt it can be proven to most people's satisfaction that preempting with the West hand is right or wrong. What is most important is that you find a style that you and your partner are comfortable with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 The 3♥ bid is mine. I know it's not perfect but 2♥ doesn't seem right either. Why? 3♥ is a serious underbid. I think 4♥ is fine too. Kathryn: I have a project for you. The next time you play in a live game, I want you to push the envelope until you get doubled and go for 1100. Apologize to your partner beforehand. Insane jumps to slams do not count. I'm referring to every day, bread and butter auctions that you need to be pushing harder on. Please report back to the forums and I want you to brag about this. Its a very important part of a player's development to push until they find sensible limits, and then only back off to an aggressive, but rational style. You will receive the "1100" merit badge :P 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_20686 Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Comments:2)3H by West/1S is wrong.3)3S by North/3H is on the wimpy side. (see thread where a decent L.R. would bid 4S).4)4S by South is certainly pushy, but maybe he knows North is a wimp. If it started: 1S (2H) 3H (4H) Then a good thing could happen for E/W --playing at 4H for instance, since neither North nor South has another call. I disagree with all of this. I could bid 2H instead of 3. Fair enough, just a style thing. KQx is a lot of defence for a preempt, but you should also mix your preempts up a bit. 3S is not on the wimpy side, showing a `good raise' here is crazy. You just have a normal constructive raise to 2M if rho passed. I think 4S was pushy. Partner will stretch already to bid 4S, as he knows he is forced to bid 3S on sub par hands, and so he needs to bid game more to take the pressure off you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahydra Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 As I mentioned, I'd bid 2H on West, but I'd rather bid 4H than 3H. And North is nowhere near worth 3H over 2H surely? Even playing 5cM it's nothing more than a limit raise (3S over 1S without interference). Or perhaps this is another partnership style thing, but phil_20686's point about opener rebidding 3S on minimum hands is a valid one. (I passed in my putative auction because this is a sub-minimum. Need roughly a poor 13-count to bid again in my style) ahydra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 As I mentioned, I'd bid 2H on West, but I'd rather bid 4H than 3H. And North is nowhere near worth 3H over 2H surely? Even playing 5cM it's nothing more than a limit raise (3S over 1S without interference). If it is a limit raise without interference, then the way to describe it is to bid 3H over 2H unless you use 3S over 2H as invitational, and I don't think that is likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 There were a number of questionable actions during the auction, but it appears that the par result would have been obtained if 4♠ were doubled. Since 4♥ is cold and 4♠ is down 1 trick, the par result is 4♠x -100 NS. The preempt by West on a good hand makes it nearly impossible for EW to double 4♠. If I were to preempt with the West hand (and I am not saying that I would) it would be 4♥, not 3. The main problem with the preempt is that you have two nearly sure trump tricks against a spade contract, and if partner is short in spades partner is likely to bid one more when that is not in your best interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted August 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Why? 3♥ is a serious underbid. I think 4♥ is fine too. Kathryn: I have a project for you. The next time you play in a live game, I want you to push the envelope until you get doubled and go for 1100. Apologize to your partner beforehand. Insane jumps to slams do not count. I'm referring to every day, bread and butter auctions that you need to be pushing harder on. Please report back to the forums and I want you to brag about this. Its a very important part of a player's development to push until they find sensible limits, and then only back off to an aggressive, but rational style. You will receive the "1100" merit badge :POk, I will try this on Wednesday and report back. :)My partner may not be thrilled, he has spent the last few years breaking me of my -1100 habits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 You will receive the "1100" merit badge :PI agree with this. When I learned bridge it was primarily from a Culbertson book and it meant playing an incredibly conservative style. Then I went to university and met my first partner. He had some "interesting" ideas about bidding but one of these was to introduce me to a much more relaxed style to competition. Indeed, my first ever weak jump overcall was a suit of ♦Txxxxx with nothing outside...vulnerable - and a success! From such experiments you get a much better feel for what does and does not work against different classes of opponent. Then you collate the results to find your own personal preferred style; then try to match that up with your partner's preferred style to reach a reasonable compromise. A part of that learning experience was also finding out the boundaries between hands that are constructive (we are looking at possible game if partner has a good hand), destructive (we do not have game unless partner has support), or unilateral (a mix of the prevous two - we want to be in game whatever partner has). Those boundaries will be different for different partnerships and systems. Nonetheless, it is clear that looking at this hand and thinking of it as purely destructive (3♥) opposite an unpassed hand has to be wrong. 3♥ vulnerable opposite a passed partner on the other hand would be reasonable in my eyes (others probably disagree) so it is not as if 3♥ is completely out of the ballpark, just that it sends the wrong message here imho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted August 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 Well, there were no -1100 but we did have a 62% game and 2nd overall. Including this 26 point slam... [hv=pc=n&s=s8hajt32daq963ck2&n=sajt2hk864dtca964]133|200[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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