Can you stop?

[shevek]

[hv=pc=n&w=sakJ74ht74dat75c9&e=s6h863dkqj6caq874&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1sp2cp2dp3dp3hp4cp4dppp]266|200[/hv]

 

West was surprised but pleased that East passed in this 2/1 "GF" auction.

The get out clause was not clear to either.

 

Could you have stopped? If so, what are your rules?

[Zelandakh]

Some play that you can never stop in 4m in a GF auction. Another approach is to allow a stop in certain circumstances. These should be that partner is limited, that we have made a try for 3NT but rejected it because of an unstopped suit, and that there was an alternative way of making a slam try in the agreed suit. On this particular auction, the crux of it comes down to whether 3♥ followed by 4♦ could be a slam try with an advance heart cue, or if this is always a minimum hand looking for 3NT. I think most undiscussed partnerships would allow the former case and therefore 4♦ has to be forcing here. FWiiW I would not have made a game force on the East hand but then I tend to open quite light and 2/1 is not a system I have ever played extensively.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

we would end up in 3NT.

 

we cant stop in 4m.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Quantumcat]

The only reason you would want to stop in 4-minor after a gameforce bid is if you have exactly 25-26 not-good HCP, so you are JUST short of the values for eleven tricks in trumps. Not very likely.

 

Your auction sounded like East had slam interest and West was going along with it but perhaps didn't have enough keycards to Blackwood.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

What does 3♥ mean here ? ( after ♦ suit agreement ) ... Or what should it mean?

EDIT: I assume it is a NT probe, but later bidding might peg it as a cue.

Edited August 4, 2012 by TWO4BRIDGE

[lalldonn]

I can not stop :(

[aguahombre]

First, we need a game-force hand opposite a 1♠ opener. Then we can work on where to stop.

[mikl_plkcc]

Yes, I can stop here.

 

4m is a fallback contract when it is decided that 3NT is a bad contract.

[fromageGB]

I wouldn't need to stop, because I wouldn't even start. My rules are a 2/1 is a 13+ hcp unless an invitational 3 card support or a game in my own hand. SO I start 1♠ 1NT. After opener's 2♦ rebid (maximum 14 hcp) I rebid 3♦ as invitational.

 

OK, with ♥Q as well, I do 2/1 and can't stop.

[kenrexford]

I underline and agree with all who say that Responder lacks a GF hand. Either 2/1 is GF, in which case Responder's call was wrong, or 2/1 is not GF, in wich case you can stop in 4minor.

[Antrax]

For those of us who don't open all 11 counts, is the E hand still not a gameforce?

[Fluffy]

1♠-2NT

pass

 

bridge is easy :P

[kenrexford]

For those of us who don't open all 11 counts, is the E hand still not a gameforce?

 

This seems rather basic, but "game" is usually defined as 26 points. Obviously,there are exceptions where fits exist. But, if you have a 12-count and your shortness is in the wrong place, and add that to a 12+ hand, I think you end up with 24+ points. Since 24 is 2 points shy of the usual game level, you do not have GF values.

[han]

I would force to game and hopefully get to 3NT. It is not a good game, but such is life.

[P_Marlowe]

Just a comment - the 3D bid is quite often made with a hand, that has SI,

and so is 3H.

 

Now East, knowes, he has no SI, but maybe West has?

How did East know, that 3H was not a cue? As far as I see it, West never

started to limit his hand.

Would West be pleased with the pass by East, if they make 4D+2?

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[helene_t]

I would force to game with the East hand, assuming we don't open very light (W might have the same hand without ♠J but not less than that).

 

Two decent 12-counts opposite each other usually have play for game. Here it is a bit unfortunate that W has exactly three hearts. The singleton club and the duplication in diamonds is bad news, also. So the hands just fit very badly.

[fromageGB]

Just a comment - the 3D bid is quite often made with a hand, that has SI,

and so is 3H.

 

Now East, knowes, he has no SI, but maybe West has?

How did East know, that 3H was not a cue? As far as I see it, West never

started to limit his hand.

Would West be pleased with the pass by East, if they make 4D+2?

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

Please explain what you mean by "SI" - undisclosed additional values?

 

Perhaps West has limited his hand by the 2♦ bid. Some play that a stronger hand rebids > 2M, so 2♦ can show a maximum 14 count. In this case, if East has stretched his initial bid, he knows it is safe to stop.

[P_Marlowe]

Please explain what you mean by "SI" - undisclosed additional values?

 

Perhaps West has limited his hand by the 2♦ bid. Some play that a stronger hand rebids > 2M, so 2♦ can show a maximum 14 count. In this case, if East has stretched his initial bid, he knows it is safe to stop.

I am assuming a standard 2/1 system:

#1 2D only showes a 2nd suit, and does not limit the West hand

#2 after the GF, the raise does not limit Easts hand

#3 3H, it showes either a control or it showes / asks about a stopper, does not limit the West hand

 

Looking only at #1 ... #3 - there is no justification for the Pass by East.

 

You could say, with real SI, West needs to bid 4D, but even then, just because West may be interested

in a heart stopper, does NOT imply, that West RULED OUT to play 5D, if no heart stopper is on board,

and this may even be the case, if we assume, that West did limit his hand with 2D.

The only valid reason to pass is, if East did know, that West had xxx in hearts, and if East did know this

from the auction, this would be something to add to the given auction.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Zelandakh]

SI is a standard abbreviation for slam interest.It is probably safe to assume that the OP would have mentioned something if their definition of 2/1 included such an unusual method as a simple rebid in a new suit being limited to 14.

[phil_20686]

[hv=pc=n&w=sakJ74ht74dat75c9&e=s6h863dkqj6caq874&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1sp2cp2dp3dp3hp4cp4dppp]266|200[/hv]

 

West was surprised but pleased that East passed in this 2/1 "GF" auction.

The get out clause was not clear to either.

 

Could you have stopped? If so, what are your rules?

 

This is quite bizarre. Firstly, have west been 2-2 in hearts and clubs you just need the club finesse for game.

 

Secondly, if you pay 2/1 GF, then west is still unlimited. Great you happened to hit him with a minimal-ish hand that is very unsuitable, but this auction looks a lot like west is setting up a slam try in diamonds. If you had hit him with a cue bid in hearts like: AKJxx x KQJx Kxx you would not have been so lucky.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

1♠-2NT

pass

 

bridge is easy :P

Unless 2NT is a GF raise.

[fromageGB]

SI is a standard abbreviation for slam interest.

Thanks, I should have thought of that. Brain showing signs of rapid ageing.

[kenrexford]

Unless 2NT is a GF raise.

 

 

If 2NT shows 4+ hearts with a stiff in either minor, no fit (and hence usually length in the other minor unless hearts are very long), and 8-11 HCP, then this auction would also make no sense, as East would be clearly misbidding. I mean, Opener's decision to pass would make sense, as he would expect something like 2-4-1-6 pattern, but I would think that the heart 7+ fit would merit Opener at least completing pattern with a 3♦ call. Do you really want to miss game if Responder has, say, ♠Qx ♥AKJxx ♦J ♣108542? Opener passing would be taking quite a position, Fluffy.

 

Edit: I thought about this more, and East may be boxed in and forced to bid 2NT with this hand, even with an unfitting pattern. Sure -- he only has three hearts, but that's close to 4+. Plus, although he actually has both minors, one of them is shorter than the other, and hence one minor is, in a sense, "short." The range of 8-11 seems to justify a 4♣ call, I am sure many will notice, but East has to downgrade for the missing fourth heart, obviously.

 

 

If you bid 4♣, I think this is a fair idea, and you can then pass 4♦, but that is resulting.

 

[mike777]

tough I would start with 1nt but at imps expect to still end up in 5d or 3nt.

 

 

1s=1nt(sf)

2d=3d or 4d or 2nt(12-13) now?

 

after 2c no I cant stop. as others point out west is unlimited and sounds like he has a club void(no 4h kickback)

 

AKQXX....AXX.....AXXXX....VOID.

[kenrexford]

5♦ is not a hopeless contract. Obviously, if they take the first three heart tricks, your odds are substrantially lower. But, on any black-suit lead, you cash the four top black cards and cross-ruff. After a trump lead, you need the club hook.