y66 Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Phelps Lags Behind Lochte and Misses a MedalBy KAREN CROUSE LONDON — At the end of the 400-meter individual medley Saturday night, Michael Phelps, the world’s most celebrated swimmer, hopped out of the pool before anyone else. It was his only first of the night. After winning every Olympic event he entered in 2008 for a record eight gold medals, Phelps, a 16-time medalist, failed to win a medal of any kind in the opening event of his fourth and final Summer Games. He finished fourth, and looked listless doing so. He never led in a race that his American rival Ryan Lochte won by nearly four seconds — with the same seeming ease as Phelps four years ago at the Beijing Games. Lochte, who was 10 seconds slower than Phelps in the 400 I.M. in 2004 and four seconds behind him in Beijing, said, “Tell you what, it was weird not having Michael with me on the medal stand.” He added, “Whenever Michael swims, he’s always on the medal stand, no matter what.” It was a shocking development for Phelps, whose stranglehold on so many events allowed him to emerge from a relatively niche sport into a global marketing presence. He created so much distance between himself and the rest of the world over the last eight years that everyone was inspired — no, forced — to work harder and dream bigger to try to bridge the gap. No one has chased Phelps more doggedly than Lochte, who, after losing to him in both individual medleys in Beijing, spent the next four years decreasing his sugar and fat intake and just as drastically increasing his mileage in the pool and his muscle.more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 One interesting thing that has come out of the swimming is what goes on in the seeding of the heats. At present, the top 24 are seeded into 3 heats. Phelps won his seeded heat, but very nearly missed out on the final taking the last qualifying place. The same happened to Rebecca Adlington today. I feel they either need to split the swimmers better between the 3 seeded heats, or only have 2 of them or guarantee the winners of the seeded heats qualification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenberg Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 A fine, informative and gracious article. Those of us who will never come in first, fourth or anywhere in international competition are pleased to wish the best for those who do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Phelps was totally gassed when he gave that interview. His relative lack of training is evident but he has so much talent he will get some medals in London. Lochte is an animal. Reminds me of "Shute" on Vision Quest. He will dominate these games although my daughter says that it's unlikely many records will fall since the bodysuits have been banned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 (edited) One interesting thing that has come out of the swimming is what goes on in the seeding of the heats. At present, the top 24 are seeded into 3 heats. Phelps won his seeded heat, but very nearly missed out on the final taking the last qualifying place. The same happened to Rebecca Adlington today. I feel they either need to split the swimmers better between the 3 seeded heats, or only have 2 of them or guarantee the winners of the seeded heats qualification.I feel quite qualified to answer this, FOR SWIMMING only. 1) I guarantee there would be serious flack if the 8th qualifying time did not qualify, and someone slower did just because of their placing in a particular heat. The heats are not knockout eliminations like other sports. The swimmers know they are time-trials in advance, and work within the rules of the sport. 2) Many many years ago, it made a difference what heat a swimmer was in. A competitor might conceivably post a slower time because he was leading the others and did not realize his pace was too slow to qualify. 3) Today's Olympic swimmers have advanced to the point where they know almost exactly what their time is thoughout the race, without reference to other swimmers. 4) There is design to keep swimmers from the same country in different heats. This might result in less than perfect seeding. But, it is expected.5) In a swimming event where first in a heat might not qualify for the finals, the times will all be so close that even the 8th fastest could medal. If the 8th qualifier is really 9th or 10th, their chances are much less and they deprive a faster swimmer of the shot. Edited July 29, 2012 by aguahombre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 I feel quite qualified to answer this, FOR SWIMMING only. 1) I guarantee there would be serious flack if the 8th qualifying time did not qualify, and someone slower did just because of their placing in a particular heat. The heats are not knockout eliminations like other sports. The swimmers know they are time-trials in advance, and work within the rules of the sport. 2) Many many years ago, it made a difference what heat a swimmer was in. A competitor might conceivably post a slower time because he was leading the others and did not realize his pace was too slow to qualify. 3) Today's swimmers have advanced to the point where they know almost exactly what their time is thoughout the race, without reference to other swimmers. 4) There is design to keep swimmers from the same country in different heats. This might result in less than perfect seeding. But, it is expected.I didn't see Phelps heat so can only comment on Adlington's. As to 4, only 2 Brits in the race, Adlington and Jackson were in the same heat. Much more difficult for Adlington to post a time leading by a mile (1.32 secs and in the first heat) when the swimmers in the other 2 that mattered were being pulled along in competition. They are in a sense time trials in many sports, but usually done as a combination of first n in each heat plus m fastest losers. The issue was the imbalance that came out, RA's heat had 3 people under 4:09, the other heats had 6 each, and 1 under 4:07 where the other heats had 3 and 5. I'm not a swimming expert, but all the non British "names" seemed to be in other heats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Well, the good news is she had the 8th qualifying time, and did indeed earn a bronze in the final. I am glad for her that she wasn't in a different heat and bumped from the finals by a slower slower swimmer who happened to win the first heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Well, the good news is she had the 8th qualifying time, and did indeed earn a bronze in the final. I am glad for her that she wasn't in a different heat and bumped from the finals by a slower slower swimmer who happened to win the first heat.Wouldn't have been a problem, she'd have been much faster in any other heat. I think the problem is that the times in Olympic qualification are ranked, so the best time goes in the last heat, the second best in the second last ... until the last 3 heats are filled by the top 24. You can get unlucky in that you get a load of swimmers whose best time was set at the beginning of the qualification period who aren't swimming well now. Some sort of computer algorithm that seeded the top 24 on a combination of best time in the qualification period and best recent time might be better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 So what do people make of what happened in the badminton this evening. For the first time, there was a group stage. As I understand it, what happened was this: Best pair in the world lost their final group match and qualified second from their group. Second chinese pair and the pair they were playing have both won all their previous matches and don't want to go into the same side of the draw as the best pair so both play to lose, barely a serve goes over the net. Referee is called and after an apology for a match, a result arrives. Next match, 2 other pairs, the same thing happens, so if you had tickets for tonight's evening session you were SoL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PassedOut Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 So what do people make of what happened in the badminton this evening. For the first time, there was a group stage. As I understand it, what happened was this: Best pair in the world lost their final group match and qualified second from their group. Second chinese pair and the pair they were playing have both won all their previous matches and don't want to go into the same side of the draw as the best pair so both play to lose, barely a serve goes over the net. Referee is called and after an apology for a match, a result arrives. Next match, 2 other pairs, the same thing happens, so if you had tickets for tonight's evening session you were SoL.Good example for Jeff Rubens to ridicule in TBW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel_k Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 The winner should be able to choose their opponent. If there are two winners from separate groups, have a countback (e.g. sets won or points won) to decide who gets to choose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 I love the word shocking in sports that 99.999% of us only follow two weeks every 4 years...or less...... Phelps results are not shocking they are predictable..... "It was a shocking development for Phelps" btw I hope basketball goes to an under 23 tourney that is close to soccer..... this whole thing reminds of BRIDGE countries who are picked by a wise/rich man or woman rather than let teams compete to represent them....boring.....having an USA basketball team of super millionaires....who are picked by millionaires is rather boring..... btw2 I can understand all the empty seats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 btw2 I can understand all the empty seats.The empty seats have been a MASSIVE issue in the UK, not sure how much that's been reported abroad. Turns out they're the ones the organisers have to leave for "the olympic family", federations and competitors. Since very few people have finished competing yet, very few athletes are using them. They've asked federations who aren't going to use them to give them back and are reselling them now. There may also be an issue that the basketball goes on till 0030 local, and some people can't get home that late so will have left. Apparently the 4 pairs involved are up in front of the badminton federation today, so we'll see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Apparently the 4 pairs involved are up in front of the badminton federation today, so we'll see what happens.8 women disqualified. I love the quote from the Korean coach: "The Chinese started this. They did it first." A 6 year old could not have stated it any better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aberlour10 Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 3pence from me. Badminton. They should not change from the pure KO system to this group phase that may end in such a scandals Fencing. Anybody got this scandalous fight between GER and KOR participants ? How long is one second? Empty seats. This is the usually issue if big sponsorship is involved in such events. The idea, to full fill these empty seats with uniformed british soldiers was not very smart imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Badminton. They should not change from the pure KO system to this group phase that may end in such a scandals Do you mean because Badminton players have different personal ethics than athletes in other sports which have a RR pool for the preliminary phases? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aberlour10 Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Do you mean because Badminton players have different personal ethics than athletes in other sports which have a RR pool for the preliminary phases? Such things happen in other sports too. But they mostly happen not in so demonstrable manner like in this case, so it will be penalized almost never. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Such things happen in other sports too. But they mostly happen not in so demonstrable manner like in this case, so it will be penalized almost never.So, a country with a bottom seed...knowing they will be pitted in a K.O. against the top seed should spend thousands and travel thousands of miles, then get a return ticket for the next day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aberlour10 Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 So, a country with a bottom seed...knowing they will be pitted in a K.O. against the top seed should spend thousands and travel thousands of miles, then get a return ticket for the next day. The sprinter from Paraguay comes to London even if he knows it will be only for 10-11 seconds while one run. Why does he do it? Because its Olympic Games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Sorry, there's nothing wrong with dumping a match if it gives you a better chance of winning the event, or improving your chances for a medal. Dump if you need to, and work on changing the format later. Jon Brissman once told me after I asked if dumping was OK, "would you sacrifice an early trick if it meant insuring your contract?". Shame on the Chinese coach for saying their players were 'conserving energy'. The SOK coach was childish, but at least he didn't lie about the team's strategy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 The sprinter from Paraguay comes to London even if he knows it will be only for 10-11 seconds while one run. Why does he do it? Because its Olympic Games.Explain your recommendation to the Bridge Kids in China. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_20686 Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 The empty seats have been a MASSIVE issue in the UK, not sure how much that's been reported abroad. This doesn't surprise me at all. I know some people who aren't using their tickets. Sometimes people applied for tones of tickets, but only planned to use them if they didn't get their first choice tickets. Sometimes people bought tickets on weekdays when there was a chance they could get a (part of) a day off work, as they didnt know if work would be busy or not at that time. For lots of professionals their workload goes up and down regularly, and they would not know far enough in advance if they could take time of for a week day session. Reselling them through non official channels is illegal, and they are supposedly non-transferable, so if the person who has them decides not to go, they cannot even give them away to a friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aberlour10 Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Explain your recommendation to the Bridge Kids in China. To compare Olymic Games with bridge events where the weak teams have intenionally guaranteed a couple of matches in NON KO phase.....sorry but its......... apples and oranges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PassedOut Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Sorry, there's nothing wrong with dumping a match if it gives you a better chance of winning the event, or improving your chances for a medal. Dump if you need to, and work on changing the format later. Jon Brissman once told me after I asked if dumping was OK, "would you sacrifice an early trick if it meant insuring your contract?". Shame on the Chinese coach for saying their players were 'conserving energy'. The SOK coach was childish, but at least he didn't lie about the team's strategy.Agree completely. The objective is to win the whole event, not a specific match. If the organizers set the conditions of contest so that it is advantageous for a team to lose a match, the organizers are to blame for the ugly result, not the competitors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 I hope Jeff Rubens' doctor is readily available when he gets the Badminton scandal news... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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