Get to the grand

[broze]

Dealer South

 

[hv=pc=n&s=skq53ht964d86caj8&w=sj72hkj73dt432c52&n=sahaqdak97ckqt743&e=st9864h852dqj5c96]399|300[/hv]

[mikl_plkcc]

In my system:

 

North deals:

2♣ (20+ unbal or 22+ bal or 1.5 trick short of game)

- 2♠! (3 controls)

3♣ (5+ clubs)

- 4♣ (agree clubs)

4♦ (cuebid)

- 5♣ (no more to cue)

5♦ (insist, grand interest)

- 5♠ (spade second round)

7♣ (spade K can discard heart loser)

 

It is so easy, isn't it?

[Zelandakh]

Either:-

 

P

... - 1♣ = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any

1♥ = 4+ spades, if bal or 3-suited then not 4 hearts

... - 1♠ = relay

1NT = 4+ hearts

... - 2♣ = relay

2♦ = bal or 3-suited

... - 2♥ = relay

2♠ = no void

... - 2NT = relay

3♣ = 4423

... - 3♦ = relay

3NT = 3 controls

... - 4♣ = relay

4♥ = spade control, no heart control

... - 4♠ = relay

5♣ = club control, no diamond control

... - 5♦ = relay

5♠ = 2 of top 3 in spades, no ♥Q

... - 7♣

 

or the simple:-

 

P

... - 1♣ = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any

1♥ = 4+ spades, if bal or 3-suited then not 4 hearts

... - 1♠ = relay

1NT = 4+ hearts

... - 2♣ = relay

2♦ = bal or 3-suited

... - 2♥ = relay

2♠ = no void

... - 2NT = relay

3♣ = 4423

... - 4♦ = RKCB for clubs

4♥ = 1 key card

... - 4NT = king ask

5NT = ♠K and an extra, no red king

... - 7♣

 

look fine.

[Antrax]

In my system:

 

North deals:

2♣ (20+ unbal or 22+ bal or 1.5 trick short of game)

- 2♠! (3 controls)

3♣ (5+ clubs)

- 4♣ (agree clubs)

4♦ (cuebid)

- 5♣ (no more to cue)

5♦ (insist, grand interest)

- 5♠ (spade second round)

7♣ (spade K can discard heart loser)

 

It is so easy, isn't it?

What happens if responder's red suits are reversed?

[ahydra]

two passes then

 

2C (lots of things, amongst which is a GF or nearly with clubs) - 2D (positive)

3S (6♣4other) - 4C (♣ are trumps, minorwood)

4D (1 or 4) - 4H (ask Q)

5D (♣Q + ♦K) - ???

 

Well now, South knows grand is fine if North's second suit is diamonds or spades, but not so much with hearts. So he needs to find out about hearts. I think I'd go 5H (third round control ask) and if I get the positive reply (as here), hope that either the suit isn't hearts or North has the HK, neither of which are too unlikely.

 

It would take a better-than-average player to foresee this problem and use some other bid over 3S, which would have to be 4S. I assume North now bids 4NT keycard and bids the grand when he finds out about the SK. Bonus points for finding out about the third-round ♦ control in South as well.

 

ahydra

[Cyberyeti]

We play a bent version of Acol, and tend to respond light to opening bids, so given that I'd more or less be burying the diamonds if pd has 5M4♦ by opening 2♣, I'll open 1♣.

 

P-1♣ (4+♣ 10-22)

1♥-2N(GF unbalanced 5+♣)

3♣(semi forced)-3♦(5+♣,4+♦, huge hand, not 2-2 in the others)

3♠(stop ?)-3N

4♣(extras, better than direct 4/5♣)-4♦(KC)

4♠(1/4)-5♦(all keycards and Q♣ held, K♦)

5♠(K♠ not K♥)-5N(still interested in grand, anything else ?)

6♠(Q♠ not Q♦, 6N should make if you don't like this)-?

 

Well partner either has KQx, xxxx, xxx, Axx or KQxx, xxxx, xx, Axx. If the former I'm on a heart finesse, the latter on the diamond ruff standing up. He might have J♠ in the second case, and/or J♣ which also improves things as does ♦Jxx which gives you the chance of Q dropping before having to take the heart finesse.

 

I think I'd probably bid 7, but it's close.

[brian_m]

Dealer South

 

[hv=pc=n&s=skq53ht964d86caj8&w=sj72hkj73dt432c52&n=sahaqdak97ckqt743&e=st9864h852dqj5c96]399|300[/hv]

 

 

Assuming NV then South's hand is an opener for me, the system is a version of Precision.

 

1NT (10-12) --- 3C (16+, alpha ask in ♣)

3S (at least ♣ QXX, 0-3 controls, agrees ♣ --- 4D Beta (how many controls?)

5C 3 controls --- 5D(Epsilon ask in ♦)

5S Third round control --- 7C (got to be worth a shot at this point)

[ahydra]

What on earth is an alpha/beta/epsilon ask? And if someone overcalls 4H over your 4D, is that a beta-blocker?

 

ahydra

[Cyberyeti]

What on earth is an alpha/beta/epsilon ask? And if someone overcalls 4H over your 4D, is that a beta-blocker?

 

ahydra

I presume these are an extension of the old style precision italian asking bids, alpha asking about partner's holding in your suit, beta asking about controls, gamma asking about partner's own suit where appropriate.

[mike777]

1c=2d(gf in c)

2nt=3c

3nt=4d(rkc in c)

4s(1-4)=5d(grand try, specific k ask, deny KH)

5s(ks, deny Kh)=6d(kd)

6s(qs)=7c

 

I would open the south hand nv with ten hcp and 4s.

[brian_m]

I presume these are an extension of the old style precision italian asking bids, alpha asking about partner's holding in your suit, beta asking about controls, gamma asking about partner's own suit where appropriate.

 

Correct (I did say the system was Precision). The bids are based on Jannersten's writeup, he went some way past alpha, beta and gamma.

[mikl_plkcc]

What happens if responder's red suits are reversed?

 

North deals:

2♣ (20+ unbal or 22+ bal or 1.5 trick short of game)

- 2♠! (3 controls)

3♣ (5+ clubs)

- 4♣ (agree clubs)

4♦ (cuebid)

- 5♣ (no more to cue)

5♥ (insist, grand interest, heart first round since it hasn't been skipped yet)

- 5♠ (spade second round since it is skipped earlier)

7♣ (spade K can discard diamond loser)

 

It is so easy, isn't it?

[Antrax]

To get to a non-making grand? definitely. I wish I could avoid them, though.

[Cyberyeti]

North deals:

2♣ (20+ unbal or 22+ bal or 1.5 trick short of game)

- 2♠! (3 controls)

3♣ (5+ clubs)

- 4♣ (agree clubs)

4♦ (cuebid)

- 5♣ (no more to cue)

5♥ (insist, grand interest, heart first round since it hasn't been skipped yet)

- 5♠ (spade second round since it is skipped earlier)

7♣ (spade K can discard diamond loser)

 

It is so easy, isn't it?

As Antrax says, so easy to bid a bad grand, you need to distinguish KQx, xx, xxxx, Axx/KQxx, xx, xxx, Axx (which is on the heart finesse) from the first with ♣AJx (where you need a 3-2 diamond break) from KQx, xxx, xxx, AJx (which again is on the heart hook) and from KQx, xxx, Jxx, Axx (which is on Q♦ dropping or the heart finesse) from the actual hand where it's excellent.

 

Have you made a misprint in your auction ? shouldn't K♠ be shown over 4♦ so 5♠ shows Q, otherwise you're bidding the no play grand opposite Kxx, xxxx, xxx, AJx, in case you didn't notice, you have 2 diamond losers.

 

At least my auction by starting 1♣-1♥ eliminates some of these and you're down to 4423 or 3433.

[Flameous]

I have a question:

 

1NT - 2♠ (10-13 / MSS)

3♣ - 4♦ (Better ♣ / RKC)

4♠ - 5♦ (1 / All keys, grand try)

5♠ - 5NT (♠K / still looking for something)

6♣ - 6♦ (I don't think I have it / ?)

 

First, would you bid 6♦ there, knowing partner has ♠K, ♣A and another 3 points without ♥K?

Second, how would you interpret 6♦? Is it still looking for ♦K or is 3rd round control enough? I guess partner should bid 6♦ over 5NT with ♦K.

 

If vul:

 

P - 2♣

2♦ - 3♣ (Waiting / nat)

4♦ - 4♠ (RKC / 4)

4NT - 5♦ (Q ask / Y and ♦K)

5NT - 6♥ (Anything extra, looking for 7NT at this point / ♥Q)

7♣ (That won't cut it...)

[Fluffy]

souths shape is very good for my strong club, where it would go something like

 

pass-1♣ (strong)

1NT-asking bids

responses-asking

3♦(4423)-4♣ (keycard in clubs)

4♦(one)-4♠(♥K?)

4NT(no)-5♦(♠K?)

5NT(♠KQ, no ♠J)-6♦(♦K?)

6♥(no)-6♠(♦Q?) to play 7NT

6NT(no)-7♣

[mikl_plkcc]

Have you made a misprint in your auction ? shouldn't K♠ be shown over 4♦ so 5♠ shows Q, otherwise you're bidding the no play grand opposite Kxx, xxxx, xxx, AJx, in case you didn't notice, you have 2 diamond losers.

 

At least my auction by starting 1♣-1♥ eliminates some of these and you're down to 4423 or 3433.

 

Doesn't 4♠ show a FIRST round control in ♠?!

[Cyberyeti]

Doesn't 4♠ show a FIRST round control in ♠?!

Most people these days cue first and second round controls without distinguishing unless partner has already cued a shortage, the Italians have been doing it for a very long time.

[Quantumcat]

I reckon I would have had the best most scientific auction with my regular pard:

 

1♣(1) 1♦(2)

1♠(3) 2♠(4)

3♣(5) 4♦(6)

4♥(7) 4♠(8)

4NT(9) 5♣(10)

5♠(11) 7♣

 

 

1. Forcing (denies 4 spades unless 6-5 or 21+HCP)

2. 4+ hearts, 0+HCP

3. 18-19 balanced, or wrong-way-round reverse in ♦ and ♣, or any 21+HCP with clubs, not balanced, DENIES 3-card heart support unless 21+

4. Transfer to 2NT - forcing to game (invite would have bid 2♣, weak would have bid 1NT/2♦(invite to 4♥ opposite the 18-19 bal)/2♥(absolute sign-off))

5. 21+ with 6+ clubs and not 3-card heart support(18-19 or ♦&♣ would have just accepted the transfer)

6. Blackwood

7. 1 or 4

8. Do you have queen

9. Yes - either with no interesting cards worth asking for, or more than one

10. What do you have in diamonds (game is an asking bid, not to play, when 3 or more keycards have been shown)

11. K, 3 or more cards (can show king doubleton on a different step)

 

Now responder can count 13 tricks - 6 clubs, 3 spades, 1 heart, 2 diamonds and 1 diamond ruff. Not even needed if pard has seven clubs, or the jack of spades, or the king of hearts (he did say after all he had more than one card worth asking about - he has a decent chance of having the king of hearts)

 

Edit:

 

Ah, I did not notice that South was dealer. In that case:

 

1NT(1) 2♦(2)

2♥(3) 3♣(4)

3♠(5) 4♦(6)

4♥(7) 4NT(8)

5♦(9) 5♠(10)

6♠(11) 7♣

 

1. 10-12 bal

2. Game-force stayman or balanced with 5-card major or slam-try in a minor

3. Answering stayman

4. Slam try or better in clubs

5. Accepting, showing some values in spades

6. Keycard

7. 1 or 4 keycards

8. What do you have in diamonds

9. Doubleton or queen

10. What do you have in spades (no point asking in hearts - opener has denied anything of use by skipping 3♥ - will be able to stop in 6♣ if he has the queen and no king)

11. KQ

 

Now can count 13 tricks - 6 clubs, 1 heart, 3 diamonds (either AKQ or AK and ruff), and 3 spades. Worst case scenario is ♠KQ doubleton and no ♦Q and only 3-card support, but then he probably has the jack of clubs if he is going to call it a 1NT opening let alone a slam try acceptance (meaning you can ruff 2 diamonds high if you want, after drawing 1 round to make sure they are at least 3-1)

[Lovera]

I am agree with 2♣-2♠, 3♣-4♣ but after i bid 4NT(1430)-5♣, 5NT=we have all keys. Then because doubleton in diamond allow us doesn't have Q of spade it being important for two ruffs, why dosen't signal with 6♦ instead 6♠ ?-7♣.(Lovera)

[foobar]

This is a cinch for any (symmetric) relay auction starting with 1♣. A sample auction in TOSR might start with 1♣ - 1♠ (balanced or reds) - 1N (GF ask) - resolve shape - QP ask - DCB ask.

 

A more interesting question might be what if South holds a red Jack and opens the bidding with say 1m (say 1C playing standard or 1♦ in a strong ♣ system).

[Free]

A nice one for my precision partnership that plays Kickback Turbo:

pass-1♣ (no opening ; 16+ any)

1NT-3♠ (8-10 bal ; 10+ cards in the minors, 0-1♠)

3NT-4♣ (♠ stoppers ; sets trumps)

4♠-5♦ (odd number of keycards with ♠ cue, no ♥ cue ; bid grand with 3rd round ♦ control)

7♣-pass (doubleton = 3rd round control ; yeehaa!)

 

A word about 5♦:

4NT would show a ♥ cue and is LTTC-like. In order to show a ♦ cue with all kinds of slam potential (for example looking for ♣Q for small slam) you'd usually start with 4NT. Hence bidding 5♦ immediately asks a specific question for grand slam: do you have a 3rd round control in ♦? If South would have KQxx-xxx-xxx-AJx he would bid 5♠ over 5♦ to show extra discarding abilities (he knows partner has 1st round ♠ control because of his grand slam interest).

[Fluffy]

There is no problem with any precision that can make south pattern out his diamond doubleton.

 

With natural methods I would start 2♣-2NT-4♣ now I can tell you I can't find grand scientifically, but I can try this:

 

2♣-2NT

4♣-4♠

4NT-5♣ (blackwood-1)

6♦-7♣ (6♦ asks for third round control of the suit)

 

Obviously this risks playing 6NT on a finesse if partner only holds ♠K and ♣A but a 22NT positive should be done form 10+

[Lovera]

There is no problem with any precision that can make south pattern out his diamond doubleton.

 

With natural methods I would start 2♣-2NT-4♣ now I can tell you I can't find grand scientifically, but I can try this:

 

2♣-2NT

4♣-4♠

4NT-5♣ (blackwood-1)

6♦-7♣ (6♦ asks for third round control of the suit)

 

Obviously this risks playing 6NT on a finesse if partner only holds ♠K and ♣A but a 22NT positive should be done form 10+

Infact by passing 5NT 6♦=? for III 'round control but if N bids 5NT(=i have all Aces aside) covering a loser in ♦ and S with one remaining may it be considered how II 'round control like a king for (cheapest) bidding in diamond instead spade ?

[Fluffy]

You mean that specific kings ask should be done with queens on suits where you have bypassed the cuebid?, it makes sense, but doubleton is not a queen.