Missed a grand

[diana_eva]

Hi,

 

Just played a 12-board team match with 3 of the boards making grand slam (biddable that is, not just lucky layout). Both tables bid the first grand, both tables missed the second and we missed the 3rd grand while other table bid it, which was expensive. Pretty exciting set for a random game on BBO :)

 

Anyway, here's the one we missed. Is there a reasonable way to reach grand here?

 

 

[hv=pc=n&w=s6hdakqtckqj97532&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=p1cp1s3h5c5h6cp]133|200[/hv]

 

1. What should I open with this hand? No fancy system, 2/1 std

2. Over 3!h, should I have bid something else? What? 4!d, 4!h and 6!c crossed my mind but eventually chose 5!c and I felt it was a poor choice.

3. Over my partner's 6!c should I have raised to 7?

 

I think I had lots of chances to bid that grand, dunno if I should have.

 

 

 

Full deal here:

 

[hv=s=SJ9874HKJT986D8C6&wn=diana_eva&w=S6HDAKQTCKQJ97532&n=S3HA7432DJ9543CT8&e=SAKQT52HQ5D762CA4&d=s&v=o&a=P1CP1S3H5C5H6CPPP&p=S3SAS4S6C4C6CKC8C7CTCAHJSKS7DTH7&c=13]300|400[/hv]

 

 

 

[mcphee]

I like opening 1C even though you do have a huge amount of tricks. For me I never open 2C when I may not be able to beat the opponents slam, the case here maybe. Could it be any more difficult after say 2C P 2D 3H ? They may well bid to 5H after you bid a natural 4C.

 

I like your choices except for 5C. Once partner responds 1S and they pre-empt you know you have a slam, its just how many. At this point lets bid what we expect to make 6C, if partner happens to have the 2 black aces lets hope they wake up.

[Statto]

4NT after 3♥? Or 4♦. Whichever shows this shape (i.e. maybe only 4 ♦) better than the other. 5♣ looks like a huge underbid, and 4♥ I think should imply much better ♠ support.

[rduran1216]

5H over 3H looks like the winner, partner shows 2 black aces and i bid 7C

[diana_eva]

5H over 3H looks like the winner, partner shows 2 black aces and i bid 7C

 

We had no agreements about what 5!h would mean.

[mike777]

We had no agreements about what 5!h would mean.

 

 

If 5h has no agreements at least it must be a grand slam try...I think it is your only chance.

[diana_eva]

If 5h has no agreements at least it must be a grand slam try...I think it is your only chance.

 

My reluctance here is that p may take it as showing fit in spade.

[benlessard]

IMO you need some precice but unpractical agreements to get it right here.

 

The way I like to play is that 4Nt directly is keycard in my suit while 4H followed by 4Nt is RKC for spades. 5H is showing a void but always show a S fit (partner only reply to keycards if he like his hand).

 

An unpractical and dangerous possibility is that Blackwood followed by a cue or by 5Nt show a unshowable void (often in partner suit but here since it can be H it should be H) and ask partner to bid 7 if he doesnt hold that ace. However that you might easily screw up your Q trumps and K ask so I dont really suggest this agreement.

[SteveMoe]

So 5♥ as Exclusion is not available. That's OK.

 

You should expect partner can contribute one trick to the hand, particularly when partner makes a 1 over 1 response (and opponents hanve not opened or overcalled). Therefore, counting your hand as 2 losers, you could bid 6♣ instead of 5 - counting only on one of 2 black Aces from partner. Having a default agreement about how many tricks you show (when bidding at or above the 4-level when strong) is a good idea.

 

If that sounds too risky, consider the evidence you had: Partner raised to 6♣ on at most 2 [heart cards] and no points in ♦. (2 heart cards assume opponents are bidding lawfully/they hold 11 trumps). Partner has to have strength in the Black Suits. Odds are better than 5-1 that partner does not have the ♥Ace.

 

What can partner have? Partner should be contributing 2 clear cover cards for you (A and fitting Ks only). Here only the black Aces matter.

 

KQJxxx, xx, xx, Ax doesn't look like a raise to 6 - we might have 2 losers in the majors.

KQJxxx, Kx, xx, Ax similarly

 

AKxxx, x, xx, xxxx offers only one trick. If you promised 10 tricks with your 5♣ bid, partner will pass.

 

AKxxx, x, xx, Axxx is a clear raise to 6 as partner contributes 2 clear cover cards and can put you on ♦ strength.

[diana_eva]

Thanks for the replies. So 5C was indeed very bad, eh. I thought that would be the case.

 

With this partner I think 6C over 3H would have been the best shot. He would have raised to 7 with his hand and his two aces, I'm pretty sure.

[mike777]

My reluctance here is that p may take it as showing fit in spade.

 

 

yes he might very well so with both black aces he needs to bid 7c and let you correct to spades.

 

pard needs to let you make the final decision.

 

As you say with no agreements and the opp preempt you just need to use your best judgment and discuss later...

 

if you bid 5h that should give you your best chance but sure there is room to be wrong. :)

[gszes]

i think it is close between 4d and 4n*

 

There is no guarantee we belong in slam and It is way too easy for

5h to be interpreted as spade support and p will indeed show how

many they have but it will include the spade K and we will rarely

be able to properly use the information we get.

 

I am leaning toward 4d because if the opps dont interfere at least

p will know we didnt have spade support and our bidding is mostly

based on a ton of clubs. 4d also has the advantage of alerting p where

we have values in case the opps continue to interfere. A 5c bid merely

warns of a weak hand (for an opener) and lots of clubs. Maybe p will

be able to take over the bidding even if the opps interfere more.

 

4h has the serious defect of showing spade support. If p signs off in 4s

we can take over the bidding with 4n but that leaves us even more poorly

placed as ever p will assume spoade support (like over 5h) and the spade

k will be an irritant. This will not happen if we bid

 

4N* directly over 3h--since we had 4h to show spade support the direct jump

to 4n has to be clubs blackwood. The upside of the direct 4n is that p will now

show aces but there is a large downside. If p bids 5c (0/3) we are then in the

unenviable position of decidng to pass or bid 7n. This is one of the reasons I

do not like normal keycard over the minors but i digress. If you have the agreement

in place to use numerical keycard blackwood over the minors (ie 012345) then by all

means bid 4n directly.

[Fluffy]

the problem is in previous round.

 

Any bid except 3NT, clubs, pass or 4♦ shows spade fit

 

3NT is wrong, pass is wrong, 4♦ won´t help you much, althou it is a live possiblity, but club bids seem more appropiate.

 

Now look at the bidding, LHO is weak, RHO is weak, and partner made the only positive bid of the auction. From the 2 cards that matter: ♣A+♠A, how likelly is partner to hold one of them?. Before bidding started he barelly had a bit more than 4/9 to have one of them, but now the opponents are passing/preempting that number has increased into bigger than 50%.so you are a favourite to make slam double dummy. Next add the chance of a heart lead into partner´s ace (or KQ with ♦J to enter) and you can see that 5♣ is wrong. Bid 6♣ and if grand is there partner might bid it on his own.

[phil_20686]

Dont most people have a specific ace ask available for the opening bid? Old school used to be 4N opener = specific ace ask.

[diana_eva]

Dont most people have a specific ace ask available for the opening bid? Old school used to be 4N opener = specific ace ask.

 

Nope, we didn't have such an agreement - was a really random game, with a not too good partner. And I'm no expert either, so I kinda got stuck. Although now it's pretty clear to me that in the given context a 6!c bid would have worked well enough.

[Quartic]

Dont most people have a specific ace ask available for the opening bid? Old school used to be 4N opener = specific ace ask.

 

I wondered that when I first saw the OP, but (at least the old school 4NT) specific ace asks are tricky when three aces are missing and the opener has a void - if partner shows two aces, you don't know if he has the two you need, or whether one is wasted opposite the void.

[Zelandakh]

It is possible to play extended responses at the 6 level to distinguish which 2 aces partner has. Unfortunately that does not work very well when Opener holds clubs since if Responder has the wrong 2 aces you are already too high. So whichever version of 4NT you are using, this cannot qualify. Of course, if you are using 3NT for your specific ace ask, you can safely play the extended responses and this now solves the problem perfectly.

[mikl_plkcc]

I would open 2♣, then jump rebid ♣.

[ahydra]

For me I never open 2C when I may not be able to beat the opponents slam, the case here maybe.

 

I find this a strange metric. Can't remember the last time I opened 2C and the opponents bid a slam (even as a sac).

 

True, you mustn't open 2C on hands light in HCP but strong in distribution because then not only will you get pre-empted around all over the place, but the misrepresentation of your defensive strength means partner will misguess whether to use the axe or bid again after opps have done this. But on this hand, you have 15 high, three (maybe even four) possible defensive tricks, and 11 playing tricks. Definitely a 2C opener for me.

 

On the given auction, 5C is not a good idea after the 3H bid. It suggests something nowhere near this good. I would have gone with 4D.

 

ahydra

[pirate22]

THREE THINGS...FIRSTLY.YOUR RIGHT HAND OPP PASSES..

SECONDLY...... what a nice club suit-and distribution-very close to slam

with very little from partner-do you want pard to possibly pass 1cl,

if left hand opp now gets Busy?so with an unknown partner i would open

2 clubs,and await developements .sure enough, the passer now comes in with

3hts over pards one spade bid.so now a pure reverse of 4d-or cue bid hts.

at least you will get to 6cl,and if pard is alert may bid 7 cl,if she/he

has the values.

me i would have no difficulty in reaching 7 clubs. because i use Modified

NORMAN, our auction would go pass-2cl!{ACE/King ask,combined}pass-3n/t,

assume no ht bid.

but if they bid 4 hts,no problem i know pard has 2 ACES and 1 King.

and i do not care where the King of what is... 7 clubs...

Now i am not being wise after the event...MODIFIED Norman is the Answer.

another point is -if pard has nothing np,and the other point is opponents

are going to get busy.if thety dont,you are still on...

[Zelandakh]

This post made no sense whatsoever. Does anyone really play that the auction:

 

(P) - 2♣ - (P) - 2♠

(3♥) - 4♦ shows both minors with longer clubs? What do you do with a hand that actually has diamonds?

 

Secondly, after the auction:

(P) - 2♣ - (P) - 3NT (= AAK)

(4♥) - 7♣, why can partner not hold ♠A and ♥A? Good luck explaining to team-mates how you managed to bring back -50 missing the trump ace. "Modified Norman" is indeed the answer here, but not to the question of what might be a good system to play over 2♣.

 

Sorry pirate, I know you like to troll by writing rubbish but this is bad even for you.

[chasetb]

EDIT - Double post, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

[chasetb]

This post made no sense whatsoever. Does anyone really play that the auction:

 

(P) - 2♣ - (P) - 2♠

(3♥) - 4♦ shows both minors with longer clubs? What do you do with a hand that actually has diamonds?

 

First, if you play a Strong 2♦ in addition to Strong 2♣ you can set it as that. I don't, but if I played a serious 2/1 partnership, I would lobby like crazy for a 3-way 2♦ - GF balanced, strong hands with primarily Diamonds, and GF 4441 hands. Forget about that though, this is the time to whip out a 3NT Opening asking for Aces. Then you can get this auction (via Mbodell): 3NT - 5♠ (promises ♠A and ♣A, no other Aces) - 7♣. http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/42183-3n-for-aces/

[Quantumcat]

If you used an opening 3NT to ask for specific aces, you'll get to the right spot (assuming the little diamond isn't an issue - hopefully pard has a couple so it is a long trick, or he has a shortage and a couple of trumps, or he has the jack, or the jack luckily falls):

 

- if pard bids 4♣ - you bid 5♣ (no aces)

- if pard bids 4♥ - you bid 5♣

- if pard bids 4♠ - you bid 6♣

- if pard bids 5♣ - you bid 6♣ (ace of clubs)

- if pard bids 4NT showing two non-touching aces, this must be hearts and clubs so you bid 6♣.

- if pard bids 5♥ showing heart and spade aces, you bid 6♣

- if pard bids 5♠ showing spade and club aces, you bid 7♣

- if pard bids 5NT showing 3 aces, you bid 7NT (ace of hearts being a discard for the little diamond).