What are we calling this?

[masse24]

Assuming "Natural" bidding methods, Standard, SAYC, 2/1....whatever.

 

The following:

1♦ - (P) - 1♠ - (P)

3♣

 

...is a Jump Shift and a Game Force. Depending on agreements, around 18-19+.

 

But what about this?

1♦ - (P) - 1♠ - (2♥)

3♣

 

...where there is interference AFTER responder?

 

Is it still a "Jump Shift", or are you calling it something else since 2♣ was not available?

Is it still forcing?

If yes, how forcing?

What sort of strength is 3♣ promising?

 

:blink:

[Cyberyeti]

The answer depends partly on what you play double as, but I don't think it's a full blown jump shift.

 

For example we play double showing 4 clubs so 3♣ shows 5 and about 13-14+.

 

If double was support, then 3♣ may well be different.

[mike777]

this is the kind of thing support doubles along with good/bad 2nt were invented to help out, not perfect but they help alot.

[Flem72]

Is it still a "Jump Shift", or are you calling it something else since 2♣ was not available?

Is it still forcing?

If yes, how forcing?

What sort of strength is 3♣ promising?

 

"Standard," 3C shows shape,a t least 5-4, and 16-17+. GoodBad it shows 5-5 and extras; BadGood, 5-5 and min. I like BG, b/c it helps partner determine a sacrifice if one is in the mix -- your LHO bids game, for example -- since you ahve shown which minor is your 2nd suit.

[Vampyr]

But what about this?

1♦ - (P) - 1♠ - (2♥)

3♣

 

...where there is interference AFTER responder?

 

Is it still a "Jump Shift", or are you calling it something else since 2♣ was not available?

 

Without competition (eg 1♠-2♥-3♣) this would be called a high reverse, and it seems to me that this name would suffice here.

[gnasher]

It's not a jump shift, because you didn't jump. It's probably not a reverse, because you didn't bid your suits in an unnatural order, though that depends on your definition of a reverse. I usually call it "a new suit at the three-level in competition".

[Finch]

Andy said what I was going to.

It's not a jump shift because you didn't jump.

 

and I don't think it is forcing, either. Traditionally it shows extra values, but if you don't play good/bad (or bad/good) then most 5-5s with about 13+ HCP have extra values.

[helene_t]

You need to have a way to show 15-17 since you can't afford to pass with those hands.

 

I don't think you can double with all those hands as partner will sometimes pass your double.

 

So 3♣ is encouraging but nonforcing.

 

With a gameforcing hand you have to do something else. Many strong hands can double or jump to game. Some can be packed into an artificial 2NT bid if you play that (even if 2NT is primarily a weak hand with 5/5m or 6+♦, you can still assign some strong meaning to 2NT followed by a cuebid). A few strong hands can jump to 4♣ although you might prefer to play that as a splinter. The rest of the strong hands will have to bid 3♥.

[aguahombre]

Plusses to Gnasher and Helene_T who stay away from the name game and describe what the bid shows.

[gwnn]

Plusses to Gnasher and Helene_T who stay away from the name game and describe what the bid shows.

It seems like the whole of gnasher's post is playing the name game.

 

Sorry, didn't mean to reply to so many of your posts (2) in quick succession.

 

@OP: yes, helene_t has it spot on. 15-17 ish with diamonds and clubs and (playing support doubles) denying 3 spades.

[aguahombre]

It seems like the whole of gnasher's post is playing the name game.

 

Sorry, didn't mean to reply to so many of your posts (2) in quick succession.

 

@OP: yes, helene_t has it spot on. 15-17 ish with diamonds and clubs and (playing support doubles) denying 3 spades.

I took Gnasher's post to be a jab at naming the given sequence anything at all.

 

If you are in disagreement with two posts, no need to be sorry for voicing that disagreement.

I can be wrong in quick succession, too. :rolleyes:

[gnasher]

I thought I was invited to play the name game. That was part 1 of the question, wasn't it?

 

I didn't answer part 2 because the OP seemed to want to know what 3♣ means in mainstream American methods, which appears to disqualify me on two counts. I don't suppose that the original poster wanted to hear either about transfer rebids by opener or about the disadvantages of support doubles.

[wanoff]

I thought I was invited to play the name game. That was part 1 of the question, wasn't it?

 

I didn't answer part 2 because the OP seemed to want to know what 3♣ means in mainstream American methods, which appears to disqualify me on two counts. I don't suppose that the original poster wanted to hear either about transfer rebids by opener or about the disadvantages of support doubles.

 

I'd like to know though.

Fwiw I play 3♦/3♠ as if there had been no intervention, 3♣strong/forcing 1 round and 2NT is just competing with one of these 3.

Double is any other strong hand.