3 card Raise after T/O DBL

[TWO4BRIDGE]

1H - ( DBL ) - ??

 

♠A J x

♥A 9 x

♦K

♣J T x x x x

 

If you don't play Bromad, how do you show this hand ?

[ I consider it a 3 card limit raise ] .

 

It is my understanding that:

1) a new suit on the 2-level is non-forcing:

1H - ( DBL ) - 2C/2D/2H are not forcing

 

I consider:

1H - ( DBL ) - 3H as preemptive .

 

 

2) a RDBL shows 10+, but denies a fit;

 

3) Unfortunately, the Jordan-2NT is a 4 card limit raise.

 

4) Likewise a fit-jump is a 4 card raise .

 

Are you stuck with the RDBL and then raise ?

[ahydra]

If you're using those constraints on your other bids, then I guess you must RDBL and raise. This is sort-of analogous to what I believe to be the standard method of showing a limit raise in 2/1 (bid a suit, 3-card if necessary, and then raise).

 

I take it your openers can be really light? Else treating that hand as a limit raise rather than GF is a bit pessimistic.

 

ahydra

[aguahombre]

If you're using those constraints on your other bids, then I guess you must RDBL and raise. This is sort-of analogous to what I believe to be the standard method of showing a limit raise in 2/1 (bid a suit, 3-card if necessary, and then raise).

 

I take it your openers can be really light? Else treating that hand as a limit raise rather than GF is a bit pessimistic.

 

ahydra

Agree with 1st paragraph, disagree with your evaluation in the second. Hands like this are good advertisements for better methods of responding after 1MX, but we are reduced to redouble and then support hearts here.

[nigel_k]

I play 2♣ forcing here but I understand that is non-standard, at least in North America.

 

You have to choose between redouble and 2NT. I prefer to play that 2NT is more offensively oriented and will usually have four trumps, and redouble followed by support is more defensively oriented and will usually have three trumps. Unless your world revolves around your trump length, I think it is ok to bid 2NT here - I would definitely prefer it if the hand was AJx AKx x JTxxxx.

[chasetb]

Yeah, the best lie to tell is XX followed by raising trump should show a LR with 3 trump.

 

On the convention cards, it says "Redouble implies no fit". So based on that, X does not deny 3-cards, it is just pretty unlikely.

[aguahombre]

Yeah, the best lie to tell is XX followed by raising trump should show a LR with 3 trump.

 

On the convention cards, it says "Redouble implies no fit". So based on that, X does not deny 3-cards, it is just pretty unlikely.

Or, just don't check that box on the CC. :rolleyes:

[MrAce]

1H - ( DBL ) - ??

 

♠A J x

♥A 9 x

♦K

♣J T x x x x

 

If you don't play Bromad, how do you show this hand ?

[ I consider it a 3 card limit raise ] .

 

It is my understanding that:

1) a new suit on the 2-level is non-forcing:

1H - ( DBL ) - 2C/2D/2H are not forcing

 

I consider:

1H - ( DBL ) - 3H as preemptive .

 

 

2) a RDBL shows 10+, but denies a fit;

 

3) Unfortunately, the Jordan-2NT is a 4 card limit raise.

 

4) Likewise a fit-jump is a 4 card raise .

 

Are you stuck with the RDBL and then raise ?

 

 

Imho. IF you are playing RDBL implies no fit then;

 

1♥-X-2♠

1♠-x-3♥

 

Should show the hand types you are asking. Some play fit jumps, some play wjs, i played both and i think it doesnt make sense to spare these bids for WJS or FIT jumps since they are unlikely to come due to double. Of course there will be hands now and then that you may actually have a wjs or fit hand or whatever you play it but i waited them long time and started to believe that it is waste of time. However we often get LR hands with 3 card fit.

 

Just an idea.

[Vampyr]

If you play transfers here, you can agree to transfer to hearts and then raise, or transfer to clubs and jump-raise in hearts, or something else, to show this hand.

[aguahombre]

Did the above two posts miss the part in the OP where he doesn't have our toys after 1MX?

 

The others were attempting to work in context of the conditions, even though we are not hamstrung by those conditions in our partnerships.

[gwnn]

1) a new suit on the 2-level is non-forcing:

1H - ( DBL ) - 2C/2D/2H are not forcing

 

I consider:

1H - ( DBL ) - 3H as preemptive .

 

 

2) a RDBL shows 10+, but denies a fit;

 

3) Unfortunately, the Jordan-2NT is a 4 card limit raise.

 

4) Likewise a fit-jump is a 4 card raise .

 

Are you stuck with the RDBL and then raise ?

If you play all this, then this hand has no bid, so you have to lie. Possible solutions:

 

-redouble then bid hearts (your point 2 being violated)

-play 1NT as 8+ with 3 cards, 2NT as 8+ with 4 cards (violating nothing but including a convention)

-play 2C as artificial 3-card raise (violating point 1).

-transfers <- this is very much the weapon of choice nowadays (violating a lot of points but mostly by switching bids around and losing 1NT natural).

 

Note that many people still play xx=possibly a strong 3-card raise, even though they play transfers or something. That means that 1H-x-2D for example is strictly 8-10 or so and denies a strong hand.

[gwnn]

Did the above two posts miss the part in the OP where he doesn't have our toys after 1MX?

 

The others were attempting to work in context of the conditions, even though we are not hamstrung by those conditions in our partnerships.

I think maybe you missed the part in the OP that defined bids in such a way that this hand has no bid. So the question is basically: which one of my conditions should I modify? All posts in this thread were made in this understanding.

[aguahombre]

Actually, the question in the OP is "Are you stuck with redouble then raise?" It seems that you are, within the conditions.

 

Of course, we would modify the conditions. But that was not asked.

[rhm]

I deem it unlikely that game has no play, though it could be an underdog.

But your chances of finding this out beforehand are not very bright.

Anything you do below game is likely to help the defense too and this could be crucial.

Even if you have low opening bid requirements, your partner need not be weak.

Is it worth to try to stop on a dime, when opponents have declared interest of coming in?

There is a lot to be said to jump to game with the intention of doubling anything thereafter.

 

The pressure bid is 4♥.

Meckwell do this all the time with very good results.

 

If you want to have an unexcited life, RDBL and then raise hearts.

 

But my preference is an unscientific 4♥.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[gwnn]

Actually, the question in the OP is "Are you stuck with redouble then raise?" It seems that you are, within the conditions.

 

Of course, we would modify the conditions. But that was not asked.

Why are we stuck with redouble then raise? If I agreed with my partner that redouble absolutely denies a fit (and if you call the opening poster's list "conditions", that is what you're saying), I would never make it. It seems like you yourself are modifying the conditions by replying that you would redouble. I would sooner bid 2NT (faking 4-card support) or 3C (again faking 4 cards but at least showing clubs). If you want to stick to the conditions you would just put down your cards and run away. I see the opening post as a theoretical question. What if someone posted that "1C=12-14 balanced or natural, 1NT=16-18, 2NT=19-21" and then showed a balanced 15 count? The answer might be "well a good 15 should open 1NT and a bad one open 1C" but that would mean you're modifying the system.

[helene_t]

The pressure bid is 4♥.

Meckwell do this all the time with very good results.

Meckwell play strong club.

[ggwhiz]

But my preference is an unscientific 4♥.

Rainer Herrmann

 

Live a little and save the redouble for after they double this.

 

Even if it doesn't work you bring fear and loathing into play in the future. Maybe for your partner if their 1♥ opener wasn't up to snuff and that could be a good thing too.

[Vampyr]

Actually, the question in the OP is "Are you stuck with redouble then raise?" It seems that you are, within the conditions.

 

Of course, we would modify the conditions. But that was not asked.

 

What conditions? I didn't see any indication that MrAce's and my suggestions were precluded.

[aguahombre]

Do you think maybe if a new suit at the 2-level is nonforcing, the OP is not playing transfers?

[rhm]

Meckwell play strong club.

When RHO makes a takeout double of your partner's one of a major opening and you have such a hand, how often do you think it matters whether you are playing a strong club system or not?

Frankly this is my smallest problem with this type of hand.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[EricK]

You also have the option of passing followed by raising to 3♥

[dkham]

To show an invitational raise double then raising hearts makes sense - but what about a monster hand (with only three hearts), does that also have to redouble then raise hearts?

 

Incidentally I like rhm's suggestion here to just bid 4♥ on this hand, though the problem there is you're pretending to have a preemptive hand, and partner may then sacrifice or fail to double opponents if e.g. they get to 5♦.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I have a feeling from the replies that I should be playing TRANSFERS over a T/O DBL .

 

Looks like all that is given up is the little used ( I think ) natural 1NT bid.

[aguahombre]

I have a feeling from the replies that I should be playing TRANSFERS over a T/O DBL .

 

Looks like all that is given up is the little used ( I think ) natural 1NT bid.

People have found a way to not give that up. 1SXX=6+ notrumpish or game-forcing single suiter. 1HXX=spade response; 1H (x) 1S=6+notrumpish or game-forcing single suiter (maybe even game forcing spade one-suiter).

 

Edit: Some people even use whatever "transfers" to NT with the 3-card balanced raise of the major as a possibility to be shown in the follow-up. We don't.

 

The transfer scheme over 1M (X) (Cappeletti, or whatever) allows us to use their double which took up no space to multiple advantage. The transfers keep the bidding alive if we want it to be; we still have "Jordan" for balanced l.r.+; and we can use jumps as invitational splinters. Also the transfer to opener's major can be distinguished in strength from the direct raise (one weaker, your choice which one).

[MrAce]

Did the above two posts miss the part in the OP where he doesn't have our toys after 1MX?

 

The others were attempting to work in context of the conditions, even though we are not hamstrung by those conditions in our partnerships.

 

 

I wasnt answering how to bid the OP hand. I didnt even realise there was a hand.

 

Mine was just an idea about 3 card limit raises after they double our 1M.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

People have found a way to not give that up. 1SXX=6+ notrumpish or game-forcing single suiter. 1HXX=spade response; 1H (x) 1S=6+notrumpish or game-forcing single suiter (maybe even game forcing spade one-suiter).

 

Edit: Some people even use whatever "transfers" to NT with the 3-card balanced raise of the major as a possibility to be shown in the follow-up. We don't.

 

The transfer scheme over 1M (X) (Cappeletti, or whatever) allows us to use their double which took up no space to multiple advantage. The transfers keep the bidding alive if we want it to be; we still have "Jordan" for balanced l.r.+; and we can use jumps as invitational splinters. Also the transfer to opener's major can be distinguished in strength from the direct raise (one weaker, your choice which one).

Thx... I overlooked the RDBL.