Wireless Scoring

[ehhh]

We are contemplating investing in wireless scoring.

We are not a big club running 2 games a week; but, often with 2 sections.

We would appreciate reading about your feelings/experiences re: wireless scoring

either from a player's point of view or from a director's point of view.

 

Wireless scoring and an automatic dealer cost about the same to implement.

Would a club's membership derive more benefit from wireless scoring or from an automatic dealer?

[mrdct]

It depends a lot on the type and standard of players you have at the club and whether you are not-for-profit club or a privately-owned business.

 

Dealing machines are great if you have lots of members who like to go through a hand record at the end of session, but if few people do that the only real advantages of a dealing machine is the ability to participate in multi-club simultaneous events and, in theory at least, be able to have boards that better conform to bridge odds than manually dealt boards which can have a tendancy to be a bit flatter if people don't shuffle thoroughly.

 

Electronic scoring has a few major advantages, principally the availability of results within a few seconds of the last table finishing. There are other benefits such as better scoring accuracy, faster movements and less post mortems.

 

Personally, I think you should try to get both but if you could only have one, I'd go for the dealing machine.

[CSGibson]

Dealing machines are excellent for players - the players don't have to learn to use them, they get immediate benefit from hand records and saving time shuffling.

 

Electronic scoring seems to be more for directors - they don't have to score the things, they can just let the players do it and relax. Yes, it saves time at the end of the session, but there is usually some frustration by players learning how to use the machines, and quite a few scoring errors to correct while in the learning stage. Also, I've found that electronic scoring actually INCREASES the post-morteming at one club I go to, because everyone asks what their percentage is an why and what the other people were doing, and then they try and figure it out...its possible to turn off that information, but the club I go to does not.

 

If I didn't have to choose, I'd like them both. But since you are asking to make a choice, I'd go dealing machine.

[Siegmund]

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

 

The electronic scorers do save the director some time -- but their real value is when you use them to display the contracts and opening leads, rather than the bare numbers-only ACBLscore printout. The usual ways of doing that tend to have hand records tied in too. Local club here has them both.

 

They also are portable. A dealing machine is real handy if you have your own building. But if you have to store equipment in a closet it is much more trouble than it is worth to drag it out and put it away (and it needs to be onsite - 51-and-53 type problems happen as much as once a session in our club and the usual fix is running the board through the machine again to redeal it.)

 

I could live quite happily without either one - did for years - and also live happily with both now. I would find it hard to have only one, if I could only have one.

[mike777]

Really?

 

You guys seem to be asking the wrong questions ....geeZ

 

I mean everyone knows 2 is bigger than one or ........high tech is better than low tech but that is not the issue.

 

 

We are told in the OP only 2 games a week and we do not have unlimited monies.

 

Question one.....If I invest a lot of money what is my return?

[paulg]

My local club runs two nights a week (~11 tables each night) and invested in a dealing machine a few years ago. Of course there were lots of complaints of wild distributions and "computer" deals initially, but now there would be a revolt if it were taken away. It is simple to teach people how to use the machine.

 

The club has considered wireless scoring but does not feel that the benefits are sufficient yet. The main benefit of wireless scoring is seen as immediate results, but as people go home after the game the fact that the results are available on the internet about an hour later is not a problem.

 

It is different in Edinburgh where a lot of people disappear down the pub after the game. Here immediate results are valued and wireless scoring is used, although to be fair it was not much slower without the bridgepads. It must be said that it seems to take longer to start playing with wireless scoring (since latecomers mess the movement more) and more training required for the scorers.

[Mbodell]

Around me we have both, but used to have neither. But even before the automatic dealing machines were around, the directors would mostly preduplicate the boards themselves. So in that manner, both are really tools for the director. You can more easily do some things, like quick pairing for a swiss movement or running a barometer with scoring machines getting results more quickly. You can more easily do other things, like preparing several sets of boards, or preparing extra board, which helps with some movements (don't need to relay boards, you can have 2 sets; you can play barometer pairs where every table, or every other table, has a board set; you can duplicate your swiss team boards more easily, etc.).

 

So I guess the question is do your 2 games a week already have pre-made hands with hand records? If so, you'd probably get more bang for you buck for the players by getting the wireless machines. But if not, getting the dealing machine would be best as moving to hand records is a much bigger change.

[mike777]

geez has anyone taken an accounting or math, marketing or econ course.....

 

 

these comments silly

 

 

i get the feeling you are all computer majors.

[Zelandakh]

geez has anyone taken an accounting or math, marketing or econ course.....

I am a maths graduate. Can you not see the benefit of gaining hand records? Surely this represents a serious upgrade to the "product"?

 

Also, the poll question asked the relative merits of one investment over the other. Presumably the fourth option (no value) was added for anyone who thinks that both would be a poor investment. As Mbodell says, if the club already provides hand records then this changes things somewhat. I suspect most of those who have voted have done so under the assumption that the club does not currently provide these.

[mike777]

I am a maths graduate. Can you not see the benefit of gaining hand records? Surely this represents a serious upgrade to the "product"?

 

Also, the poll question asked the relative merits of one investment over the other. Presumably the fourth option (no value) was added for anyone who thinks that both would be a poor investment. As Mbodell says, if the club already provides hand records then this changes things somewhat. I suspect most of those who have voted have done so under the assumption that the club does not currently provide these.

 

you are blind to the important questions..

 

 

you only see the simple ones

 

you make huge, random, facts.....too many

[blackshoe]

We have a local organization here - it's not affiliated with any club, it's a subordinate of the Unit we're in. The organization bought a dealing machine. Later, the club owners got together and bought Bridgepads. So we have both. The reason I mention this is to suggest, if you have other clubs in the area (and a central place to keep the dealing machine — we are fortunate in that most of the clubs meet in the same synagogue, and our landlord has been kind enough to give us some permanent (and lockable) office space to go with the playing room — it might be a good solution to pool your resources and get a shared machine.

[barmar]

I voted for the dealing machine. However, everyone seems to be making the same assumption: you need a dealing machine to get predealt hands with hand records. Before we got a dealing machine, we hand-duplicated the boards. The dealing machines are still a good value -- they save several minutes at the beginning of the session, and are especially useful for small clubs where it's hard to find good movements when you have to skip the set of boards that each table duplicated.

[Siegmund]

@barmar: yes, I did assume that -- since at any club I've ever played at, the extra 10 minutes at the start to make predealt hands would cause a mutiny (or, more likely, cause half the players to habitually show up 10 minutes late). I wouldn't dream of inflicting hand-preduplication on my players, even if I did reliably have Mitchell movements. (If I had two sections, I would do it the oldfashioned way -- give all the odd boards to one section and all the evens to the other, "shuffle deal and play a hand, make a copy of it, and pass it to the other section.")

 

Hand records are, to serious players, a benefit. But the serious players are grossly outnumbered by the casual players at club games. In my experience it won't fly unless it is nearly hassle-free.

 

@mike777... return on investment? Neither one is bringing you in a penny. That isn't a factor imo. Though the dealing machine may drive a few suspicious casual players away temporarily.

[Phil]

A dealing machine is a nicer amenity to the players than scoring machines.

 

I have also heard that in the not-too-distant-future, you'll see an iPhone app for scoring.

[gordontd]

I have also heard that in the not-too-distant-future, you'll see an iPhone app for scoring.

http://www.androidzoom.com/android_developer/victor-lesk_cimyq.html - for Androids, not iPhones

[CSGibson]

Really?

 

You guys seem to be asking the wrong questions ....geeZ

 

I mean everyone knows 2 is bigger than one or ........high tech is better than low tech but that is not the issue.

 

 

We are told in the OP only 2 games a week and we do not have unlimited monies.

 

Question one.....If I invest a lot of money what is my return?

 

This wasn't posed as a "what's best for the club" question, it was posed as "what's best for the players". You should read the OP before handing out irrelevent criticism, IMO.

[BunnyGo]

Speaking from the players POV, I don't really care at all about wireless scoring. It gets me the scores faster at the end of the night, but that's not worth the cost.

 

I really like having hand records--a lot. I also like having cards well shuffled. It's a pet peeve of mine when people half heartedly cut the cards twice and then deal.

 

If you're going to do either, I think the players would much rather have a dealer than wireless scoring--not least because many of the older players at my club still cannot operate the score pads and find them more an annoyance than a benefit.

[Mbodell]

@barmar: yes, I did assume that -- since at any club I've ever played at, the extra 10 minutes at the start to make predealt hands would cause a mutiny (or, more likely, cause half the players to habitually show up 10 minutes late). I wouldn't dream of inflicting hand-preduplication on my players, even if I did reliably have Mitchell movements. (If I had two sections, I would do it the oldfashioned way -- give all the odd boards to one section and all the evens to the other, "shuffle deal and play a hand, make a copy of it, and pass it to the other section.")

 

Hand records are, to serious players, a benefit. But the serious players are grossly outnumbered by the casual players at club games. In my experience it won't fly unless it is nearly hassle-free.

 

You are missing the third option, which as I said was extremely common around me before the machines were purchased, which is the directors hand duplicate the hands before the session. Not the players duplicate the hands, the directors. The directors can ask players to suit and sort the hands at the end of the night (while they are waiting for the slow table to finish and the results to be posted), and practiced directors can make a set of boards from suited and sorted cards very quickly (like 20 minutes a board set).

 

But I agree that hand records are the biggest win for the players, so if you don't currently provide them, and the dealing machine lets you provide them, then it is a no brainer. If you currently have hand records, then it is a much closer decision.

[awm]

The duplicating machine just saves people trouble. Without one, you need to either have the players duplicate (which takes time and players hate doing it) or the players shuffle (which is difficult for some older players, and means no hand records) or have the directors duplicate (which takes time and is annoying for the directors). Adding the duplicating machine gets you the benefit of hand records and just saves everyone effort. From a business standpoint, adding the duplicating machine will not drive anyone away from the club, and it will encourage teacher-student pairs (who love having hand records), serious pairs (ditto), and players with some physical issues (for whom shuffling and/or duplicating is hard). It can also make the directors happier and more likely to continue directing at the club (especially if the other option was hand-duplicating by director-- but it also helps if there is a misplaced card or the director needs to take a poll, both cases where hand records help the directing staff). Basically there's just no downside.

 

The automated scoring actually annoys a lot of players. First, people have to learn to use the machines -- in principle this is not hard but many bridge players are older and have difficulty reading the devices and/or operating electronics. Second, you have to decide whether to include summaries of what other people did on the board. There are basically three options here (no information which bothers players accustomed to travelers, percentage only which leads to a lot of often-loud speculation about why the board scored that way, or complete results which often leads to loud discussion of the hand, for some reason even more than travelers do). Third, you occasionally have a complete disaster if there is a power failure or computer breakdown, which can ruin a whole session. Of course, there are definitely benefits to electronic scoring (faster results, electronic summary sheets including what every pair did on every board, eliminating certain kinds of scoring errors) but it's going to annoy at least as many players (at least initially) as it pleases.

[billw55]

I agree that hand records are the biggest win for the players, so if you don't currently provide them, and the dealing machine lets you provide them, then it is a no brainer.

Definitely agree with this. Depending on your player base, this could increase your attendance and contribute to its own cost.

 

Personally I don't care about wireless scoring at all. Printout after the game and full results next day online is all I ever need. So if there are already hand records, I would say buy neither the dealer nor the wireless, find something else to spend the money on. For the cost of a dealer, you could offer free pizza once a month for five years. That might bring in some players too.

[mrdct]

Question one.....If I invest a lot of money what is my return?

You are making an assumption that the OP's bridge club has a profit motive.

[Vampyr]

dealing machine is real handy if you have your own building. But if you have to store equipment in a closet it is much more trouble than it is worth to drag it out and put it away

 

Another solution, which we do at our once-a-week club, is to have someone responsible for dealing several sets at a time, at home. This task can be rotated among club members (preferably those, if any, who go to the club by car).

 

(and it needs to be onsite - 51-and-53 type problems happen as much as once a session in our club and the usual fix is running the board through the machine again to redeal it.)

 

 

At our club we don't have this problem and anyway the board is on the computer/hand records so it can easily be fixed.

 

Re the portability: a dealing machine and one set of boards is approximately as portable as a sufficient number of electronic scorers to serve a club.

 

 

@barmar: yes, I did assume that -- since at any club I've ever played at, the extra 10 minutes at the start to make predealt hands would cause a mutiny

 

I think that this would never, ever happen in England at a club game or tournament (I mean the players consenting to duplicate the boards, not the mutiny). Anyway, at tournaments it is usual that everyone plays all the same boards; at larger clubs too. Our once-a-week club does not find it practical to have more than one set of boards available, but with hesitation movements we can often all play the same 24 boards. Unfortunately with 12 tables we play a revenge round instead of a double-weave Mitchell. :(

 

 

 

(or, more likely, cause half the players to habitually show up 10 minutes late). I wouldn't dream of inflicting hand-preduplication on my players, even if I did reliably have Mitchell movements. (If I had two sections, I would do it the oldfashioned way -- give all the odd boards to one section and all the evens to the other, "shuffle deal and play a hand, make a copy of it, and pass it to the other section.")

 

And the hand records are created how?

 

 

 

You are missing the third option, which as I said was extremely common around me before the machines were purchased, which is the directors hand duplicate the hands before the session.

 

Not such a great option if using volunteer playing directors, or even paid directors who might end up playing if there is an odd person and no host (or if there are both and a half table).

[Siegmund]

Two things.

 

Is my club the only one that uses the electronic scorers to record the opening lead? To me, this was a huge benefit to understanding why a seemingly routine result at my table turned out not to be an average, as well as a great way to harvest lesson hands. The players can see right away whether the active or the passive lead, or the high or the low card from JTxx, led to an extra trick. For me personally, gaining a record of the opening lead at other tables was a bigger gain for me than having hand records was - I had for some years been in the habit of marking interesting boards on my scoresheet, and retrieving a couple boards after every session if I wanted to right them down to study them, while I waited for the results to come out. I wasn't suffering from the lack of a hand record all that much.

 

If your electronic scorers don't have that capability or you haven't bothered to turn it on, then yeah, there is not much reason to spring for them over a dealing machine.

 

 

I agree that to many serious pairs and to the mentor-mentee pairs, gaining hand records is a big plus. But I played in clubs games for many years without predealt hands (its a very new thing for ANY clubs in this area to have dealing machines, and most of them still don't) and even a number of small sectionals I've played at have not used hand records.

On the flip side, there have been quite a few times when I have hated the fact we were using hand records (in tournaments where the players preduplicated before the first round): when the sections had 9 or 13 tables in them, we got to play only 24 boards instead of the normal 27/26, both shortening the session (and robbing me of a dollar's worth of fun) and hurting the quality of the comparison by making it not be an everybody-plays-everybody-in-the-other-line game.

I'm just saying that switching to predealt hands is not purely upside, there are occasional minuses.

 

(Vampyr: almost every session at a US sectional or regional begins with 10 to 15 minutes of players suiting and duplicating cards, the director collecting all the hand records, and then starting the game. It is a real nuisance, and without machines, accepted as a necessary evil to get hand records. The alternative method I described -- odds to one section and evens to another -- was the standard way of running 18- to 30-table sectionals up until the mid 90s here. There were of course no hand records, as there weren't in any other hand-dealt game, but it was a way to allow two sections to play the same cards.)

[Siegmund]

Also, @mbodell:

 

The directors can ask players to suit and sort the hands at the end of the night (while they are waiting for the slow table to finish and the results to be posted)

 

Are you serious? It's vital the old boards not be destroyed until after the scores are finalized. That's how you check to see if a board got fouled (or, in a multi-site game where it matters, initially misduplicated.) I would be slapping the hands of the directors who asked for that. Hard.

 

Actually had this happen to me a few years back... a club game the week before a STaC was starting, and the person in charge of next Tuesday's game stand up during the last round and ask people to sort the cards to save her duplicating time - WHILE I was staring at some impossible results on a traveler I had just typed into the computer and getting ready to start asking questions and inspecting the board as soon as it was out of play. I think it is the second-loudest I have ever roared, "NO, don't do that!!!!" in a bridge club. (The loudest was when I heard a table shuffling four boards at the start of round six in a four-table Howell, because someone - not me - had 'helpfully' flipped a card face up after the cards were played for the third time after round four. It was too late to save three of the boards.)

[Mbodell]

Also, @mbodell:

 

Are you serious? It's vital the old boards not be destroyed until after the scores are finalized. That's how you check to see if a board got fouled (or, in a multi-site game where it matters, initially misduplicated.) I would be slapping the hands of the directors who asked for that. Hard.

 

One of our local club's dealing machine is on the fritz, and I was asked to suit and sort during the last round tonight at the club. The wireless scoring machines also went out midround and missed a round (but I think that might be partly director user error). We also nearly never capture the opening lead in teh club games, even with scoring machines. There was one club that tried to capture the opening lead on travelers without scoring machines, but it was hit and miss.