ATB

[quiddity]

[hv=pc=n&s=sk5hakj93dkq54ckq&n=s72h5da9762cj9632&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=p1sdp2d2s3hppp]266|200[/hv]

Imps.

[keylime]

North has a two bid hand when pard has doubled and then bid at adverse colors 3H on their own.

[gszes]

what would you have done over 2d if rho had passed?? your hand is too strong

for a mere 2h bid and not quite strong enough for a game forcing 3h bid (suit is

not so great either) so you would have settled for a 2s bid. The purpose of the 2s

bid was to gather more information from p as cheaply as possible. You have the

same opportunity here by repeating your TOX. If p wants to convert this to penalty

you are certainly not going to be embarrased by your defense and if p bids again

we will be in much better shape to proceed intelligenlty. There is also one more

benefit from a second x if we bid 3h now it is stronger than if we had bid 3h

directly over 2s. That means it is forcing to at least the 4 level. A direct 3h is

mererly be competitive (around 16 and hopefully at least 6 hearts).

 

Note how well this works with this hand----your second x gets a 3c bid from p

you now know they are distributional (at least 54) so the odds of 4h being correct

drop to almost nonexistence ---- since p avoided nt they do not have a spde stopper

so nt is a poor bet that leaves us with 4d asking p to proceed to 5 if they are not

broke and p bids 5d with their ace.

[ggwhiz]

Except that I would pass a 2nd double with the north hand, stiff ♥, 2 trumps and an entry.

 

The South hand looks like a 3♠ or 4♦ bid instead at imps and either should lead to 5♦.

[ArtK78]

what would you have done over 2d if rho had passed?? your hand is too strong

for a mere 2h bid and not quite strong enough for a game forcing 3h bid (suit is

not so great either) so you would have settled for a 2s bid. The purpose of the 2s

bid was to gather more information from p as cheaply as possible. You have the

same opportunity here by repeating your TOX. If p wants to convert this to penalty

you are certainly not going to be embarrased by your defense and if p bids again

we will be in much better shape to proceed intelligenlty. There is also one more

benefit from a second x if we bid 3h now it is stronger than if we had bid 3h

directly over 2s. That means it is forcing to at least the 4 level. A direct 3h is

mererly be competitive (around 16 and hopefully at least 6 hearts).

 

Note how well this works with this hand----your second x gets a 3c bid from p

you now know they are distributional (at least 54) so the odds of 4h being correct

drop to almost nonexistence ---- since p avoided nt they do not have a spde stopper

so nt is a poor bet that leaves us with 4d asking p to proceed to 5 if they are not

broke and p bids 5d with their ace.

 

I lost this post about half way through.

 

I disagree that I am too strong for a 2♥ bid had RHO not rebid his spades. A direct 1♥ overcall can be made on a pretty strong hand. The maximum for a simple overcall is about 17 or even 18 if a double would be inappropriate. So, to me, the double followed by a new suit (2♥ in this case) shows about 18-22 and not enough to force to game opposite a non-fitting nothing hand. This hand is about a maximum for a 2♥ rebid.

 

Where I lost this post was the statement that "A direct 3h is mererly be competitive (around 16 and hopefully at least 6 hearts)." This is silly. Why would I commit a 16 count with 6 hearts to the 3 level opposite a partner who had promised nothing so far other than diamonds as his best of the unbid suits? 3♥ over 2♠ is a huge bid. This hand is certainly strong enough for it, even though the heart suit is less than I would expect.

 

This hand is a real problem over 2♠. I have no strong objection to 3♥, but I might bid 3♠ due to the diamond fit.

 

As for responder, he has an A and 5-5 in the minors. Passing over 3♥ is out of the question.

[Fluffy]

OMG north passed with that?, I'd rate slam bids over pass.

[Cyberyeti]

North has a two bid hand when pard has doubled and then bid at adverse colors 3H on their own.

OK, but what is his second bid ? Is 4♣ natural here ?

 

S complicated an auction with a known fit by bidding a 5 card suit. I'd have bid 2N which IMO shows something like a (possibly off shape) 2N opener. Now partner knows we're bidding game, I can also live with X, but don't bid 3♥.

[mike777]

75%north, north cant pass 3h with that hand.

 

25% south, prefer x over 2s.

[billw55]

South had other alternatives, but 3♥ was at least reasonable.

 

North had other alternatives, but pass was not reasonable.

 

100% north.

[SteveMoe]

A different construction:8

Overcall 6-16 also 17-19 with exactly 6-3-3-1 shape, 1 in their suit (♠s here).

Double then double implies no 5+ card major or 6+ card minor to rebid. Generally 14-19 HCP.

Double then new suit 17-19 (excludes 6331 shapes).

Double then jump new suit 20-21

Double then NT 19-21

Double then Q-bid 22+

 

On this hand, I would double then rebid 2N. I would open this hand 2N in 2/1.

North cannot pass either 3♥ or 2N. Responder has an 8 loser opposite partner's at worst 5-loser (here 4).

5 or 6 of either minor should be on the radar screen...

[MrAce]

We may or may not agree with the 3♥. He has alternative bids perhaps. It would be more sexy if he had 6th ♥ for his bid but life aint perfect.

 

But i am sure we all will agree ( i hope) that North's pass is ugly.

[rhm]

We may or may not agree with the 3♥. He has alternative bids perhaps. It would be more sexy if he had 6th ♥ for his bid but life aint perfect.

 

But i am sure we all will agree ( i hope) that North's pass is ugly.

I second that.

Those who critic 3♥, how long do you want to hide a strong 5 card major in a strong hand?

We might belong in 4♥ opposite ♥Qx and not much else.

Is partner supposed to bid a 3 card heart suit at the three-level holding a weak hand?

Do you want to force to game missing 3 aces when partner has not promised anything?

 

I consider 3♥ at this stage the right bid, even though this could loose when we belong in a diamond partial.

Too tough

 

Rainer Herrmann

[lowerline]

I can understand Norths pass. 3♥ is limited after all... North should have bid 3♠ anyway because it's imps.

I think another double by South is better than 3♥. With one more heart and and a few points less 3♥ would have been spot on...

North 60% South 40%

[rhm]

I can understand Norths pass. 3♥ is limited after all... North should have bid 3♠ anyway because it's imps.

Is South unlimited? Does he have game in hand?

South 3♥ shows a near game force. It does not say the hand can only play hearts.

Only a beginner will pass over 3♥ when holding an ace and good distribution, no matter what the vulnerability, imps or matchpoints. After all 6♣ could be laydown.

3♠ over 3♥ with another unbid 5 card suit but nothing in spades and a singleton heart is a joke.

Over 3♠ South may bid 3NT. In this case 3NT has chances. Exchange South minors and the contract is terrible.

If you bid 4♣ over 3NT after 3♠ you make a cuebid in support of hearts.

 

I think another double by South is better than 3♥. With one more heart and and a few points less 3♥ would have been spot on...

North 60% South 40%

If South doubles and LHO at white against red raises spades, what now? Maybe in your local club games this never happens, my LHO do this all the time.

I wonder how you will ever find your heart fit, if you have one. If you bid 4♥ you will end up in a 5-1 fit, if not you will miss your 5-3 fit.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[lowerline]

Is South unlimited? Does he have game in hand?

South 3♥ shows a near game force. It does not say the hand can only play hearts.

Only a beginner will pass over 3♥ when holding an ace and good distribution, no matter what the vulnerability, imps or matchpoints. After all 6♣ could be laydown.

3♠ over 3♥ with another unbid 5 card suit but nothing in spades and a singleton heart is a joke.

Over 3♠ South may bid 3NT. In this case 3NT has chances. Exchange South minors and the contract is terrible.

If you bid 4♣ over 3NT after 3♠ you make a cuebid in support of hearts.

 

 

If South doubles and LHO at white against red raises spades, what now? Maybe in your local club games this never happens, my LHO do this all the time.

I wonder how you will ever find your heart fit, if you have one. If you bid 4♥ you will end up in a 5-1 fit, if not you will miss your 5-3 fit.

 

Rainer Herrmann

 

 

Why can't South have 16-17 hcp and a 6crd heart suit? Why shouldn't North pass that at matchpoints? I don't believe that 3♥ can be that strong that 6♣ is laydown.

3♠ is the only way to 3nt. North has to decide right now what the most likely game is. Maybe 4♣ is better, but if 3nt makes, 3♠ can hardly be a joke...

 

South knows there is a diamond fit. If he doubles again now, he can always bid 5♦ later. Are you so worried that 4♥ makes and 5♦ doesn't?

 

Steven

[gszes]

I lost this post about half way through.

 

I disagree that I am too strong for a 2♥ bid had RHO not rebid his spades. A direct 1♥ overcall can be made on a pretty strong hand. The maximum for a simple overcall is about 17 or even 18 if a double would be inappropriate. So, to me, the double followed by a new suit (2♥ in this case) shows about 18-22 and not enough to force to game opposite a non-fitting nothing hand. This hand is about a maximum for a 2♥ rebid.

 

Where I lost this post was the statement that "A direct 3h is mererly be competitive (around 16 and hopefully at least 6 hearts)." This is silly. Why would I commit a 16 count with 6 hearts to the 3 level opposite a partner who had promised nothing so far other than diamonds as his best of the unbid suits? 3♥ over 2♠ is a huge bid. This hand is certainly strong enough for it, even though the heart suit is less than I would expect.

 

This hand is a real problem over 2♠. I have no strong objection to 3♥, but I might bid 3♠ due to the diamond fit.

 

As for responder, he has an A and 5-5 in the minors. Passing over 3♥ is out of the question.

 

 

i reread my post and i can see where the confusion might set in my bad my original statement about 3h being game forcing was

assuming rho had not bid 2s

 

 

 

the second part assumes the 2s bid then

 

3h competitive (say 17-a poor 20) with x followed by 3h a great 19+ (our current hand for ex) even though we really wish we had 6 hearts:))))

[MrAce]

Why can't South have 16-17 hcp and a 6crd heart suit? ?

 

Steven

 

He shouldn't.

 

He has a perfect hand to start with overcall instead of DBL then. But if you are one of those who always start with DBL with 16+ without thinking ahead, you will often face this type of decisions.

[JLOGIC]

3H is a bad bid. It does indeed suggest playability in only hearts, or at least 6 good hearts. With a more flexible hand, south doubles again and then can bid 3H if he wants (with 5 hearts), much like a hand he has. Bidding 3H with only 5 hearts when partner will be forced to pass with a stiff heart and a hand not good enough to bid cannot be right.

 

Passing 3H seems reasonable to me. North has 1 trick and one heart. Partner has not suggested 9 tricks. xx AKJxxx Kx AQx would certainly double and bid hearts at his next turn, that is not a game. And on the bidding partner will often have 3 spades which is even worse for our hand.

 

I do not understand why people are calling passing 3H a beginner bid, from my understanding of partners bidding we are not likely to have enough HCP for game nor do we have a fit for his suit. What is so great about our hand?

 

Now, had partner doubled 2S like a human being it would be very easy to get to game since we know partners hand has more HCP and less hearts.

[JLOGIC]

If South doubles and LHO at white against red raises spades, what now? Maybe in your local club games this never happens, my LHO do this all the time.

I wonder how you will ever find your heart fit, if you have one. If you bid 4♥ you will end up in a 5-1 fit, if not you will miss your 5-3 fit.

 

Rainer Herrmann

 

If you double then bid 4H over 3S, partner will not pass with a stiff lol. That is the whole point of doubling a second time. The way you end up in 5-1 fits is by bidding 3H and having partner pass with a stiff. If you change the DA to the D2 I assume you will agree with passing 3H, and yet you are in a completely ridiculous contract.

[JLOGIC]

 

Only a beginner will pass over 3♥ when holding an ace and good distribution,

 

"Good distribution." Oh yeah, we have a stiff in partners suit when he has shown a heart hand, and we have a doubleton in the opps suit. Is any distribution bad? Surely 3334 would be great, we have a fit! 2254, awesome, a fit and 54 in the minors! There really must be no such thing to you as bad distribution. As far as I'm concerned a stiff heart is bad distribution, I will not get any points for ruffing hearts if we play in hearts.

 

Since there is no such thing as bad shape to you, I guess we must bid with an ace because partner has shown about 18 points and 6 hearts. Sounds awesome.

[rhm]

"Good distribution." Oh yeah, we have a stiff in partners suit when he has shown a heart hand, and we have a doubleton in the opps suit. Is any distribution bad? Surely 3334 would be great, we have a fit! 2254, awesome, a fit and 54 in the minors! There really must be no such thing to you as bad distribution. As far as I'm concerned a stiff heart is bad distribution, I will not get any points for ruffing hearts if we play in hearts.

 

Since there is no such thing as bad shape to you, I guess we must bid with an ace because partner has shown about 18 points and 6 hearts. Sounds awesome.

LOL.

The deal would hardly be contentious if we had our stiff outside of partner's suit.

The distribution is good even though we have our stiff in partner's suit; what is less certain is whether we have a good fit after 3♥.

If not, no shape is helpful, but we have an unbid 5 card suit opposite a strong hand having made a takeout double.

The fact that we have only a doubleton in spades when partner made a takeout double, makes it almost impossible that the deal is a total misfit.

I respect your accomplishments, but I am surprised that you want to argue this point.

"Awesome" is passing 3♥, when 6♣ could be close to lay-down opposite many suitable "18 points and 6 hearts". (♠Ax,♥AKxxxx,♦x,♣KQxx)

 

OMG north passed with that?, I'd rate slam bids over pass.

An exaggeration of course, but it does have my sympathy.

By now it is apparent that the contention is about what the lower and upper limit of a hand, which doubles first before overcalling, should be.

I would not double over 1♠ with an average 16-17 HCP, six hearts, unless I have a self sufficient suit, but I know a lot of people, who do.

I would simply overcall 2♥ if I need support in hearts, intending to double next, if given the chance. And I expect to have plenty of expert support, in particular in your country.

That way, the chance that you may get in trouble is far less. Just think about spade raises over a takeout double, in particular at these colors.

Holding a strong but not very strong hand, people often underrate this risk, while the fear of missing 4♥ by overcalling 2♥ immediately is exaggerated.

The latter risk requires far more specific circumstances in the remaining hands, which is unlikely unless the hand is really strong in HCP.

 

There is a significant difference between doubling 1♥ with a six card spade suit and doubling 1♠ with a six card heart suit.

For the latter you need a better hand and I consider the South hand, missing three bullets, not particularly strong for doubling first and then overcalling.

But most people are too lazy to make such simple distinctions.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[gszes]

 

 

Passing 3H seems reasonable to me. North has 1 trick and one heart. Partner has not suggested 9 tricks.

 

ditto

 

I do not understand why people are calling passing 3H a beginner bid, from my understanding of partners bidding we are not likely to have enough HCP for game nor do we have a fit for his suit. What is so great about our hand?

 

ditto

 

xx AKJxxx Kx AQx would certainly double and bid hearts at his next turn, that is not a game. And on the bidding partner will often have 3 spades which is even worse for our hand.

 

 

over 1s this hand originally x intending to bid 2h (over either 2c or 2d) now that e has bid 2s are we now supposed to be quiet?? we have to now bid 3h to show the kind of hand that was originally

intending to bid 2h over our p 2c/2d bid. Thats why 3h is wrong here our hand is too strong and not heart oriented enough.

[rhm]

xx AKJxxx Kx AQx would certainly double and bid hearts at his next turn, that is not a game. And on the bidding partner will often have 3 spades which is even worse for our hand.

I doubt this statement.

♠xx ♥AKJxxx ♦Kx ♣AQx over 1♠ would be a good hand for the MSC panel in the Bridge World, except that the Bridge World tries to avoid hands where there are only 2 options.

But I am pretty sure that not everybody would double.

 

I wonder what you do red on white after

 

(1♠)--DBL--(3♠--pass

Pass --- ?

 

or

 

1♠---DBL --4♠-pass

Pass---?

 

I would certainly not double and expect plenty of company

 

Rainer Herrmann