Do you overcall?

[Guest Jlall]

more likely is 1D p 1S p 2S p p p... if u make a habit of overcalling 2C on ATxxx and a 12 count red at imps you'll go for ALOT of numbers.

 

 

If u overcall 1H it will probably go

 

(1D)-1H-X-2D-2S-p-p-3C-p-3H-p-p-p (assuming 2D showed support) and you will probabaly make it.

[Fluffy]

1) yes

2) automatic

 

overcall at 1-level on any 5 card suit and any 8+hcp

wow, I though I would be alone here, nice to see you B).

[cf_John0]

(1)1H;

(2)wait.

There is a trap of the opp's 4-4 Heart fit.

[Chamaco]

" Do you blame your teammates? You shouldn't:

 

--- cut --

The trouble is that the opponents with

your cards forced your teamates to guess and, unluckily, they guessed wrong.

 

-- cut --

 

You have failed to take an almost no-cost

opportunity to bring partner into the action and you have paid the price. "

I disagree with Marston here on at least 2 points.

 

1) The overcall is not at all a "NO COST " opportunity, because:

 

a) It promises more solid values, at this vuln. This is generally accepted, but I understand some people lower the requirements for overcall. I disagree on lowering the requirements at IMPS, vulnerable though.

 

b ) Bridge is a game of %, or, if you like, cost-benefit analyses.

When you take a decsisions, you weight up losses and gains. Sometimes, even making the % choice, you may end up scoring badly, but that does not mean the choice was wrong on percentage.

As I discussed in my previous post, the overcall may mislead pard in terms of values, in terms of blowing trick on opening lad (which may result in giving the contract away), and in terms of suggesting a sac when we hld a low ODR ratio.

 

On the other hand, overcalling may result in finding a god sac or pushing opps up.

I belive the chances of the latter being right are much lower than the potential losses.

 

c) I have read someone saying 1H is a "nuisance bid".

It is not, because it does not steal space (only one step up of last opps bid), actually it helps opps in the biding (they can bid, pas or double).

 

I suggest to those who call this a nuisance bid toi read carefully the chapter on Nuisance bids in the book "Matchpoints" by Kit Woolsey. t is written for matchpoints but the argument given apply as well to IMPS.

 

d) i like to take my decsions based on the value of he hand (and of course also on the pressure put on my opps.

Here my hand is not suited for offense.

I won't bid just because I expect my pard to overbid (in that case I'd rather change partners).

If we get a score once in a while, so be it, it will be compensated by the times where I'll avoid silly big penalties at IMPS.

[Guest Jlall]

1H in itself is not a nuisance bid but

 

(1D) 1H (X) 3H is a nuisance bid facilitated by the 1H bid. Even

 

(1D) 1H (X) 2H is a nuisance bid.

 

etc...the possibilites are endless.

[Chamaco]

(1D) 1H (X) 3H is a nuisance bid facilitated by the 1H bid. Even

 

3H is nuisance because it takes up room.

However, with our hand and wased values, how many times will 3H be welcome by us ?

If I overcall with such hand I'd be very worried to hear a 3H bid, especially if I play with a pard who uses "Total trick" raises: he would not know of my wasted values.

On a good day it'll work, but I rate it to work well less often that it backfires, at IMPS, vulnerable.

 

(1D) 1H (X) 2H is a nuisance bid.

 

2H is only a minor nuisance.

Opener can bid 2S with a minimum, 3S with a max, double again, bid NT, cuebid, etc etc.

He can even define btter his hand by passing, so actually he has extra options.

 

Responder has already said he has 4 spades (or denied it, if playing that 1S sows 4+), in a few cases things will be awkward, but onbalance that should not be a big problem.

[Fluffy]

It seems obvious to me that 1♥ will be good as long as partner has support and bad (can be very badly if leads a doubleton honnor) if he hasn´t got it.

 

How many ♥ does partner have? giventhat you can rule out opener having 5 cards it will be about 2.7 or 2.8 average, so more likelly that is good :).

 

Of course you also have to take a note on dangers and advantages, if you are driving them into a bad game decision 1% more times than you are gonna concede -1100....

[dogsbreath]

Hi

good problem Ron. certainly pros &cons to the 1H o'call. H suit not ideal but if you are playing in a free-bidding partnership bidding 1H does discourage P from entering with Spades when opps may be more inclined to take a penalty. (eg converting a neg or competitive x). Until recentlyI'd never have considered an overcall but i am more inclined now. Dont think i could quite stomach it at Red-v-White tho :))

Rgds Dog

[Rebound]

For those of you promoting the bid of 1H, I think you are forgetting the benefit to opponents, who may hold AKJ of hearts, and are now free to cue-bid hearts or bid NT to show stoppers in the suit. A 1H bid gives them extra actions to choose from, not fewer, as the "nuisance bidders" may suggest. I pass.

[EricK]

For those of you promoting the bid of 1H, I think you are forgetting the benefit to opponents, who may hold AKJ of hearts, and are now free to cue-bid hearts or bid NT to show stoppers in the suit. A 1H bid gives them extra actions to choose from, not fewer, as the "nuisance bidders" may suggest. I pass.

The people who are advocating 1♥ are not "forgetting" anything. They realise there are plus points and minus points for practically *every* call that they ever make and they choose the call where they believe the plus points outweigh the minus points.

 

Are you absolutely sure that the minus points of bidding 1♥ outweigh the plus points?

 

Eric

[Chamaco]

The people who are advocating 1♥ are not "forgetting" anything. They realise there are plus points and minus points for practically *every* call that they ever make and they choose the call where they believe the plus points outweigh the minus points.

I think Rebound may have used the wrong words, but I agree with him by restating the following opinion:

 

1H bidders

 

1- *overstate* the nuisance effect and obstructive effect (marginal 1H overcalls with bad suit over 1D in itself is a backfiring tatctics, as illustrated by the book by Kit Woolsey), and

 

2- understate the dangers of conveying to pard a wrong message (standard overcalls suggest an offensive hand -if holding less than opening - or a better hand in terms of HCP strength), which may be decide to jump raise or sacrifice and resulting in sever penalties at IMP vulnerable (remember you cannot always hope opps stretch to bad game).

 

The posted hand is terrible in Offense/defense ratio, holding 70% of hcp in opps suit, what's more 1H is not lead directing and a H lead has many chances to blow the decisive trick.

 

Sure enough, in a weak field it will work, but I'd like to know if a world class player would bid 1H here *against his peers*.

[the hog]

"Sure enough, in a weak field it will work, but I'd like to know if a world class player would bid 1H here *against his peers*. "

 

The answer to that is "Yes" Mauro. Read Paul Marston's comment above.

[Cascade]

"Sure enough, in a weak field it will work, but I'd like to know if a world class player would bid 1H here *against his peers*. "

 

The answer to that is "Yes" Mauro. Read Paul Marston's comment above.

I think he really wants to know how many world class players will bid 1♥ against their peers.

 

In any case that is much more interesting information.

[whereagles]

To overcall or not is very, very borderline. And as usual in such situations, it's tactical considerations that decide, more than the technical merit.

 

If you're winning and opps are desperate, overcall 1H because that's what they'll probably do at the other table, and you want to do what they're doing. Etc...

[Guest Jlall]

If you're winning and opps are desperate, overcall 1H because that's what they'll probably do at the other table, and you want to do what they're doing. Etc...

Yeah but then it becomes a spy vs spy thing :)

[Blofeld]

I overcall and think it's close-ish, but not so close that I wouldn't do it without the ♣J.

[pclayton]

If Im playing the simple overcall portion of "Overcall Structure", its automatic.

 

If I'm not (and I generally don't), I pass:

 

1: The suit is threadbare

2: My point count is minimal, even adding full value to the AQ98

3: 1♥ over 1♦ takes up very little bidding room. OTOH if I had Qxxxx of spades and AQ98 of clubs and RHO opened 1♣, an overcall would be automatic. I've heard some suggest that an overcall like this should show an opening hand, since its takes up no bidding room.

Wow - other than the name, I don't agree with anything in this thread 3 years later. :)

[jdonn]

Revived from 2004? Jlall?!?

[kenrexford]

Interesting flash from a past I missed.

 

I'd overcall. Seven loser hand, just about a minimum for me to open, so enough.

 

I consider it very close. Not very close to a pass, but very close to a 2♥ overcall instead. Normally, when in doubt, I default to a 2M jump if I am stiff in the other major (discourage that which I do not want to hear). I just really hate my hearts too much at this color.

[cherdano]

Wow, old times.

yes and yes

[yes to close] and

just a matter of style here.

I have a vague feeling we would get a stronger opinion today. :)

 

Anyway, I should be glad I didn't post in this thread, I am sure I would have past at the time.

[mike777]

I guess I have learned nothun...I still say No and NO.

One heart Vul. for me would be a full opening hand. Not a junky 10 or 12 hcp one.

 

There are alot of styles out there since some bid 1h or 2h I guess here. :)

 

Now remake the hand NV and KJT8..xxx....xxx....xxx :)

[mike777]

Interesting! Bill suggested their might be a divide on different sides of the pond. The Italians would overcall without a second thought. I would bid 1H but consider it very close.

 

Here is a quote from Paul Marston on this hand:

 

"I am surprised that the view of this group is so crusty.

Consider this likely hand for partner:

Kxxx

Kxxx

xx

Axx

For all you passers, the bidding goes 1D - p - 1S - p - 2S, which presumably

gets passed out. That makes about 110. You probably have 140 in hearts

(maybe 620!). Who's to blame?

At the other table it goes 1D - 1H - 1S - 3H - 3S - p - 4S - X. That goes

for 500. Do you blame your teammates? You shouldn't: opener overbid to show

spade support (as we all do) and responder took a close push to a game. On a

good day this would make but today it was wrecked by the poor position of

the diamonds and the bad trump break. The trouble is that the opponents with

your cards forced your teamates to guess and, unluckily, they guessed wrong.

So you lose 12 imps instead of the 6 imps you were already slated to lose.

You don't need a heart fit for bidding to be right. Give partner: Kxxx, xx,

xx, AQxxx. This time the other table bids 1D - 1H - 1S - 2C - 2S - 3C and

the opponents with your cards have the plus score they should have while you

still lose 110.

You can piously justify your pass of 1D by counting your points or examining

the quality of your heart spots but the truth is that you are just a stodgy

old bugger who never bids. You have failed to take an almost no-cost

opportunity to bring partner into the action and you have paid the price. If

you have partnership rules that prevent you from overcalling on this hand

then you should quickly change the rules."

Interesting and thank you for following up results..do you have the full deal?

[the hog]

Interesting! Bill suggested their might be a divide on different sides of the pond. The Italians would overcall without a second thought. I would bid 1H but consider it very close.

 

Here is a quote from Paul Marston on this hand:

 

"I am surprised that the view of this group is so crusty.

Consider this likely hand for partner:

Kxxx

Kxxx

xx

Axx

For all you passers, the bidding goes 1D - p - 1S - p - 2S, which presumably

gets passed out. That makes about 110. You probably have 140 in hearts

(maybe 620!). Who's to blame?

At the other table it goes 1D - 1H - 1S - 3H - 3S - p - 4S - X. That goes

for 500. Do you blame your teammates? You shouldn't: opener overbid to show

spade support (as we all do) and responder took a close push to a game. On a

good day this would make but today it was wrecked by the poor  position of

the diamonds and the bad trump break. The trouble is that the opponents with

your cards forced your teamates to guess and, unluckily, they guessed wrong.

So you lose 12 imps instead of the 6 imps you were already slated to lose.

You don't need a heart fit for bidding to be right. Give partner: Kxxx, xx,

xx, AQxxx. This time the other table bids 1D - 1H - 1S - 2C - 2S - 3C and

the opponents with your cards have the plus score they should have while you

still lose 110.

You can piously justify your pass of 1D by counting your points or examining

the quality of your heart spots but the truth is that you are just a stodgy

old bugger who never bids. You have failed to take an almost no-cost

opportunity to bring partner into the action and you have paid the price. If

you have partnership rules that prevent you from overcalling on this hand

then you should quickly change the rules."

Interesting and thank you for following up results..do you have the full deal?

Jeez Mike, that was 3 years ago!! I don't even know why this thread resurfaced. Justin must have been totally bored last night.

 

The only comment I can make is that today virtually every strong player I know would overcall on this hand unless he/she was brought up in a totally old fashioned school.

[Free]

Wow, I also don't agree with my response anymore! I guess times change B)

[han]

Someone has been studying old threads, this was an interesting one. At the time I probably would have passed, now I'd always overcall. Perhaps reading the forums for 3 years has chaanged my (bridge-) life?