A matter of style or just wrong?

[Phil352]

So my partner and I have a severe disagreement over the non-competitive auctions 1m 1M 2M

 

What hand shapes do you raise to 2M with only 3 card support? Does it change depending on relative strength of suits? Does it change depending on MPs vs IMPS?

 

We had the auction

 

1♦ 1♥

2♥ 2♠!

3♦?

 

Can this 3 diamond bid show only 3 hearts? is it possible that 3D actually shows only 3H and not 4 or can a x45x hand be possible?

 

I had

 

xx

Jxx

KQJxxx

Ax

 

Should this rebid 2D or 2H? All views welcome!

[gnasher]

I don't mind a style where the raise promises four or an unbalanced hand with three. I also don't mind a style where it can be a balanced hand with three card support and a low doubleton outside.

 

I think it's OK to bid 2♥ with a 2362 shape, but not with ♥Jxx and ♦KQJxxx. This will play well in diamonds even opposite a singleton, but 2♥ in a 4-3 fit will often be poor.

 

The meaning of 1♦-1♥;2♥-2♠;3♦ is a matter of agreement.

[mike777]

strongly prefer 2d not 2h, not close.

 

assume 2s is a game try and 3d is a counter game try, agrees hearts.

[Cthulhu D]

Yeah, rebid 2D. Seems perfectly normal, if P bids again you can support hearts.

 

I prefer a style where you raise on 3 only with a difficult bidding problem otherwise. For example:

 

S: x

H: Kxx

D: KJxxx

C: KJxx

 

1NT is a bit of a joke, 2S is of course out, not hugely enthused to rebid diamonds, leaving me with 2C or 2H.

[the_clown]

2♦, I wouldnt bid 2♥ in a milion years.

[wank]

with this shape 2♥ is fine and many people play 2♠ (or 2NT over 2♠) as an enquiry to determine what type of raise you hold.

 

on this occasion though the diamond suit is too good relative to the heart suit.

[chasetb]

2362 minimums should be bidding 2♦ AT LEAST 95% of the time. When you have a good 6-card suit, rebid 2♦ EVERY TIME. Once you agree on Hearts as trump, you are stuck in playing Hearts, or rarely playing in NT. So 3♦ after you bid 2♥ and partner makes a game try is saying no for Spades (assuming natural), but I have too much to just sign-off.

[JLOGIC]

Some styles are bad

[perko90]

2♦. gnasher said it best.

[EricK]

In general, I like raising on 3 card support with a minimum unbalanced hand, but here, the only reason you opened this hand was the good ♦ suit, so you have to rebid it to let partner know. If you do play a style where opener frequently raises on 3, then in response to the asking bid, opener's bid below 3M should show 3 cards in the major; while higher bids promise 4. So in your sequence, if you have chosen to raise on a 2362 hand, then 3♦ shows that sort of hand (3♣ would show something like 1354; 2NT something like 4351). With a x45y hand you bid 3♥ if minimum for your raise, and something higher if not-minimum.

[Zelandakh]

How you play this depends on which system you are using. For example, in SEF or Forum D you never raise with 3 card support here. For the Anglo-American style, gnasher seems to have pretty much summed up the main options. On the given hand I prefer 2♦ to 2♥ and 2NT to 3♦.

[Phil352]

Fair enough this seems pretty conclusive. I probably should have mentioned that we were playing a weak NT and so 2353 hands are automatically discounted. When I play strong NT with another partner we frequently bid 2M with 3 card support and a small doubleton as gnasher suggested.

 

Am I right in thinking most people are looking at playing in the best/safest partscore rather than trying to help partner make a decision about borderline games where we have a double fit? For example would you expect partner to move again on eg. xxx KQxxxx Ax Qx? I guess he could bid 3♦?

[Free]

Raising on a 3 card is quite alright when the alternatives are not appealing. I haven't had many issues after a 3 card raise when we avoided the following situatons:

- 1NT with a weak doubleton

- 2m on a 5 card suit (example 1c-1s-2c with 3-1-4-5)

- poor 6 card suit

 

The OP's hand has a good 6 card suit, so just do the normal thing and rebid 2d. Swap DK for HK and I'd probably raise.

[TimG]

For example would you expect partner to move again on eg. xxx KQxxxx Ax Qx? I guess he could bid 3♦?

I wouldn't think of passing 2♦. I wouldn't pass any rebid by opener (well, maybe 5♦).

[JLOGIC]

Wow playing weak NT makes raising so much worse too. That was pretty relevant info.

[fromageGB]

I never raise on 3 card support unless I have a singleton or void outside, so 2♦ rebid always on this hand. You can always support hearts later if needed. I like partner to be able to rely on this when he makes his next bid.

 

Apart from style, if 1♥ is unlimied, you seem to be giving up the idea of a diamond slam if you do bid 2♥. Partner will never know your diamonds are so good.

 

After the 2♠, 3♦ would confirm only 3 card support.

[awm]

It's really important to have agreements about this. There are definite advantages to raising often with three-card support, but a lot of them will be negated if partner does things like blast 4M on indifferent four-card suits in this auction. It's also good to discuss how you explore further after the raise (i.e. after 1♦-1♥-2♥ is 2♠ natural or an asking bid? does it set hearts or are other trump suits possible? if natural, is it a "help suit try" or always 4♠?). Without these discussions I would raise much less often on three than I do in my regular partnerships.

 

With suitable style agreements, I like to raise on three a lot, and will raise on three with 2-3-6-2 shape pretty often. However, this particular hand is all about the diamonds and you really should repeat them. I think the main consideration on this hand type is whether you would rather play a 6-1 diamond fit or a 4-3 heart fit (i.e. the worst fit likely in each suit). With such robust diamonds I think the choice is obvious. On a diamond suit like Axxxxx or even AKxxxx and a higher heart honor (or if the diamonds are downright lousy), the choice can easily go the other way.

[Phil352]

Justin how does playing weak nt make it worse? If anything surely it makes it easier for partner to know what to do since some hand types are automatically discounted?

[nige1]

So my partner and I have a severe disagreement over the non-competitive auctions 1m 1M 2M

What hand shapes do you raise to 2M with only 3 card support? Does it change depending on relative strength of suits? Does it change depending on MPs vs IMPS?

We had the auction

1♦ 1♥

2♥ 2♠!

3♦?

Can this 3 diamond bid show only 3 hearts? is it possible that 3D actually shows only 3H and not 4 or can a x45x hand be possible?

I agree with Phil352 that

• It is a good idea to raise with three cards on some hands.
• Assuming that possibility in this auction then it seems natural to use 3♦ to admit to a 3-card raise.

I had xx Jxx KQJxxx Ax

Should this rebid 2D or 2H? All views welcome!

IMO 2♦ = 10, 2♥ = 9. Decision is close.

[jallerton]

Justin how does playing weak nt make it worse? If anything surely it makes it easier for partner to know what to do since some hand types are automatically discounted?

 

It depends. Do you play:

 

(1) Weak NT with 5-card majors;

(2) Weak NT with 4-card majors, but opening the lower of two 4-card suits; or

(3) Weak NT with 4-card majors, but opening the major before the minor?

 

I expect that Justin's answer was assuming (1).

 

If you play (1) or (2), then a sequence like 1♦-1♥-2♥ is consistent with 15-16 balanced and therefore has a stronger upper limit than the same sequence playing 5-card majors and a strong NT (when the typical hand type for this sequence is a weak NT). Therefore, playing (1) or (2), you don't also want to be raising to 2♥ on unbalanced hands which are relatively weak for playing in hearts. Otherwise, how does partner know when to make a game try?

 

If you play (3), then yes you could agree that 1♦-1♥-2♥ is often a minimum 3-card raise.

[mgoetze]

What hand shapes do you raise to 2M with only 3 card support?

None. I expect this is one of the styles Justin considers bad. ;)

[lalldonn]

Justin how does playing weak nt make it worse? If anything surely it makes it easier for partner to know what to do since some hand types are automatically discounted?

If you play a weak notrump then you raise 1H to 2H on 15-17 balanced with 4 card support. You can't also do it on 11 balanced with 3 card support!

 

I think it is just a bad bid to raise hearts on the given hard regardless. It's taking an idea way too far without thinking about where the hand is likely to play well. Even with a singleton in one of the black suits and the same red suits I would think 2D is absolutely clear.

[Quartic]

If you play a weak notrump then you raise 1H to 2H on 15-17 balanced with 4 card support. You can't also do it on 11 balanced with 3 card support!

 

I think it is just a bad bid to raise hearts on the given hard regardless. It's taking an idea way too far without thinking about where the hand is likely to play well. Even with a singleton in one of the black suits and the same red suits I would think 2D is absolutely clear.

 

I play a weak NT, and I rebid 2♥ with a minimum unbalanced hand. With a 15-17 balanced with 4 card support I would jump to 3♥. Maybe it depends which weak NT system you're playing.

 

Edit: I don't know what I was thinking - I don't ever have a 15-17 balanced with 4 card support here... I would have opened 1♥ (4 card major system). I jump to 3♥ with an unbalanced 15-17.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Quartic

[fromageGB]

With a 15-17 balanced with 4 card support I would jump to 3♥. Maybe it depends which weak NT system you're playing.

15 opposite 6, playing 3♥ with an 8 card fit and a combined 21 count? Not a system I would choose.

[JLOGIC]

I play a weak NT, and I rebid 2♥ with a minimum unbalanced hand. With a 15-17 balanced with 4 card support I would jump to 3♥. Maybe it depends which weak NT system you're playing.

 

This is very atypical for weak NTers and also IMO a terrible way to play. Getting to 3H with 15 or 16 just seems like a bad idea and also unneccessary.