manudude03 Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 [hv=pc=n&e=s6haq86dakj7cakj7&d=e&v=b&b=10&a=2n(Agree%3F%20%5B20-22%5D)pp3s]133|200[/hv] First question is what do you open with this collection? Suppose you open 2NT, it goes 2NT-P-P-3S, what do you do now? Edit: MPs scoring if it matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 I open 1♦, I reopen with a double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasetb Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 4441 hands are awful, and near impossible to bid. I would open 1♦ because I don't have the Q, K, or A singleton of Spades, then make a takeout double. In the past I have opened two hands very similar to this 1♦. The first time 3NT was reached, after partner bid 1♠ on ♠KJxxx and ♦Jxx; the second time 6♦ was reached after my partner raised me to 2 (he was conservative and you could count on him for full values). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSGibson Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Open 1♦ (or 1♣, though I think much less of the fake reverse than I do the planned JS or splinter auctions) like a human being who has played this game before. Now, having opened 2N, I'm going to pass this, because the only other option is making a take-out X, and I'm not going to embarrass myself by putting this down as dummy (another comment on how bad I think 2N is). Maybe partner will be concentrating so hard on his yarb that he won't notice that I don't follow to the 2nd spade in defence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akhare Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Open with a minor of choice. However, having made this choice, X seems OK at MPs (voted for P before seeing the edit on the scoring)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanoi5 Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 I hope the double is for take-out, though I'm sure that's normal. Opening 1♦ will not create so much trouble with so many spades missing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyck Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 These are the type of hands Multi was designed for; if you play it as Weak 2 in a Major or any 4441 17-24 HCP hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyck Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Lacking Multi, I would open 1♣ (I open ♣ with 33 or 44). If 2N opening instead, I would double the 3♠, not particularly caring if pd took it as T/O or penalty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasetb Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 These are the type of hands Multi was designed for; if you play it as Weak 2 in a Major or any 4441 17-24 HCP hands.Why would you want to start 17-20(21) HCP 4441 hands at the 2-level immediately, with a possible (more than you think) misfit? Just open it at the 1-level; if partner has anything you have more room to work. Also, throwing those hands into a Multi - Weak 2 of a Major makes it much less effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Why would you want to start 17-20(21) HCP 4441 hands at the 2-level immediately, with a possible (more than you think) misfit? Just open it at the 1-level; if partner has anything you have more room to work. Also, throwing those hands into a Multi - Weak 2 of a Major makes it much less effective.If you're playing a multi (weak 2/strong bal) anyway, adding the 3 suiter costs little. I used to play the 3 suiter in the multi back when I played one, and it does help removing these hands from your 1 openers, we played 18+ I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbodell Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 I hope the double is for take-out, though I'm sure that's normal. I agree that X is take-out. But here you are strong enough that it shouldn't be the end of the world if partner leaves it in, even if partner thought it was penalty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WellSpyder Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Lacking Multi, I would open 1♣ (I open ♣ with 33 or 44). I can understand opening 1♣ with 22 occasionally if nothing else fits, I guess, but it seems pretty conservative with 33 unless you are playing precision. And I can't even remember the last time I held 44 points.... :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manudude03 Posted July 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Those opening 1m might have been in an interesting predicament. (apologies if pips move- no hand records) [hv=pc=n&s=sqjhkjt9542d84c83&w=st73h73dt9532c654&n=sak98542hdq6cqt92&e=s6haq86dakj7cakj7&d=e&v=b&b=10&a=2npp3sppp]399|300[/hv]. After a 2NT opener, I decided partner would probably think double is penalty and so passed. Declarer misplayed it and finished -1 for 10/14 MPs for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 No predicament at all on those breaks, we start 1♦-P-3♦(0-4 5+ diamonds) and after trying for a slam will play 5♦ which seems to be a lucky make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manudude03 Posted July 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 I'd like to play against your opponents :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 I'd like to play against your opponents :)Well if they're up to leading a heart, and underleading the ♠AK to beat this with a second ruff then good on them, I'll have Q♠ stiff and be missing J♣ next time they try that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSGibson Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Well if they're up to leading a heart, and underleading the ♠AK to beat this with a second ruff then good on them, I'll have Q♠ stiff and be missing J♣ next time they try that. Perhaps he was talking about passing the 7 card heart suit 2nd seat to give you an uncontested auction, instead of the potential play of 5♦ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Perhaps he was talking about passing the 7 card heart suit 2nd seat to give you an uncontested auction, instead of the potential play of 5♦It shouldn't be a big problem, some people won't bid vul with the defensive looking ♠QJ, and they'll prob only bid 2♥. 1♦-(2♥)-P- is an interesting problem for N, but after either 2♠ where you have an easy X or P where you can bid 2N I don't foresee too many problems. Worst that's going to happen is you declare 3N and S has to find a spade after 1♦-(3♥)-P-P-3N. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Grunch but NO I DO NOT AGREE I DO NOT HAVE A BALANCED HAND AND I HAVE A VERY SUIT ORIENTED HAND Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Of course double is not takeout lol. We showed 20-22 BALANCED and partner passed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecalm Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Of course double is not takeout lol. We showed 20-22 BALANCED and partner passed. Imo double is t/o and I think it's way better to play it as t/o.Partner couldn't bid anything below GF strength but odds of him having a 5-6carder somewhere opposite our say: xx AKxx AQx AKxx are great.I mean, they have heard about 20-22 balanced part and still choose to overcall, it's not like we are collecting 500+ more often than once a century. 4441 hands are awful, and near impossible to bid In Vanilla 2/1 they are, in some decent system they aren't. Just open 1C and bid some multimeaning 2D reverse next round, wtp ?Even playing vanilla you could open 1D and reverse in hearts. It sucks a bit to have 4-4 instead of 5-4 but vanilla standard always suck with strong hand anyway, this lie is not even that big.If they bid spades you will have easy double all the way describing your hand perfectly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Imo double is t/o and I think it's way better to play it as t/o.Partner couldn't bid anything below GF strength but odds of him having a 5-6carder somewhere opposite our say: xx AKxx AQx AKxx are great.I mean, they have heard about 20-22 balanced part and still choose to overcall, it's not like we are collecting 500+ more often than once a century. Look at what they overcalled 3S on on this hand lol. Do you think it is once in a century that we get 500 against that hand? And why are you concerned only about getting 500? I want to make sure I get 200 instead of 100 when I have them beat (maybe you didn't notice it was matchpoints). If partner has a 6 card minor, he is free to balance with it if we don't double them for penalty. If partner has a stiff spade and a little something, he is free to bid. Imo it is absolutely insane to play double as takeout on 2N p p 3S. Something is wrong with the world. Eve if I had your example hand I am not sure I would want to double for takeout, we are r/r and I would expect to go down in 4 of something even if I hit partner with a 5 card minor. We have a lot of losers, and reasonable defense against 3S, and likely bad splits. At some point we must have shown enough values that we can double them for penalty when they are vul at MP when we have stopepd bidding. Having at least half the deck and a balanced hand seems like a good point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 double post lol hotel internet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 X is takeout (for us by a simple blanket agreement that after 1/2N-(3 any) X is takeout from either side and we don't distinguish 2nd/4th overcalls). A pen X deserves to catch pard with xx, xx, xxxxx, Qxxx and you take 3 tricks off a spade contract while 5♦ makes (♣ 4-1, ♦xxx-Q, K♥ offside). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 At some point we must have shown enough values that we can double them for penalty when they are vul at MP when we have stopepd bidding. Having at least half the deck and a balanced hand seems like a good pointWhat's more important is what we've denied. When partner passed 2NT, he denied the values for game. Since then, all we've learned is that the suits aren't breaking, making it even less likely that we'd want to play something at the four-level. That makes double useless as a takeout bid, so it' must be for penalties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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