Looking for Non-Natural system players

[hrothgar]

I'll be there, and I suspect/hope Richard will be there as well ;)

2:00 on Sunday works fine on this end...

 

Once again, I'd like advacned notice (preferably today) regarding the pair we'll be competing against and the methods that they are employing

[Cowology]

Are any pairs going to be playing Moscito? That's the system I would really like to see. :D

[hrothgar]

Are any pairs going to be playing Moscito? That's the system I would really like to see. :D

Free and I will be playing MOSCITO

[luke warm]

we plan on being there... fwiw, here's a summary of opening bids

 

1c=16+ if flat, 17+ w/ major, or 18+ if minor-cntrl responses

1d/h/s= 2 suited hand, guaranteed canape unless clubs 2nd suit

1nt=12-15, 2c response is invitational puppet..2d is game force stayman

2c=3 suited, 11-16 (any 3 suits)

2d/h/s=one suited, 11-17, 6+

2nt=6+ clubs, 14-17

3c=6+ clubs, 11-14

 

after a 1 opening, the next highest bid is a relay looking for 2nd suit... it is not forcing

[scoob]

i don't see any declarations of matches, but if you get stuck with us here's our notes:

 

http://www.landsbridge.com

[EarlPurple]

The time to play is now. Trying to round up the players (just in case they browse here).

[inquiry]

Did the exhibition match go off? How many people from here showed up to watch? I couldn't find any earlp's hands from yesterday, but found a match with free and hrogthar versus scoob and his partner. This was moscito versus big diamond (loghorn?). Was there another match?

 

Ben

[hrothgar]

Did the exhibition match go off? How many people from here showed up to watch? I couldn't find any earlp's hands from yesterday, but found a match with free and hrogthar versus scoob and his partner. This was moscito versus big diamond (loghorn?). Was there another match?

 

Ben

The match went off as planned, with some delays due to last minute cancellations of some participants.

 

We had two tables with a mixture of Precision, Forcing Pass, some strong Diamond System, and MOSCITO. At times there were about 10-12 people watching

[mr1303]

Yeah, we had two matches, one of which when hrothgar interfered over our strong club on a 4333 3 count. Which caused us to go off in the (arctic) 6NT, when my partner played him to have one useful card....

[Free]

Yeah, we had two matches, one of which when hrothgar interfered over our strong club on a 4333 3 count. Which caused us to go off in the (arctic) 6NT, when my partner played him to have one useful card....

Hehehe, isn't my defense vs strong ♣/♦ great? :)

 

Btw, yesterday we used that same defense against nebulous 1♣ and 1♦ openings, without any problems! I think I'll continue this experiment for a while...

[hrothgar]

Yeah, we had two matches, one of which when hrothgar interfered over our strong club on a 4333 3 count. Which caused us to go off in the (arctic) 6NT, when my partner played him to have one useful card....

Dude, I didn't have a choice...

 

The defense is one that Free constructed. Pass is used to show certain strong hand types. Hoding a 4333, I'm forcned to bid 1♥ or 1♠

[inquiry]

A method that FORCES you to overcall with 4333 and 3hcp with 1♥ (or 1♠) could lead to utter disaster, especially vul. I suspect since 6NT was cold then 1♥X or 1♠X or 2 any minor doubled would not be a big susccess.... down seven is a possibility and down six likely. Not vul 1400 to 1700.. and vulnerable? Don't get me started... :-)

 

Ben

[the hog]

Yeah, we had two matches, one of which when hrothgar interfered over our strong club on a 4333 3 count. Which caused us to go off in the (arctic) 6NT, when my partner played him to have one useful card....

Hehehe, isn't my defense vs strong ♣/♦ great? :)

 

Btw, yesterday we used that same defense against nebulous 1♣ and 1♦ openings, without any problems! I think I'll continue this experiment for a while...

I would not call a defence that forces me to bid on a 4333 hand "great". Ridiculous is more the term I would use.

[Free]

I think Richard misread the defense: pass is allowed, but try to avoid it when NV... You CAN bid with any hand, even without HCP, but nothing is obligated!

[keylime]

There's an item of note - who's got the best defense over a strong club/diamond pass method? :blink:

[the hog]

What is the definition of "best". I wet myself laughing at those who claim that bidding over a big C with nothing is effective.

 

I like:

1D/H/S = canape overcalls, but not crap

X = good hand

1N = minors

2C = natural

2D/H/S = Tutti frutti, same as our 2 level openings. We play this over a natural 1C as well.

[inquiry]

I too doubt there is a best, but this is what I like... particulary I like the raptor-like 1♠ and 1NT bids.

 

DBL = clubs

1♦ - transfer to ♥, partner is not obligated to complete transfer

1♥ - transfer to ♠. parnter is not obligated to complete transfer

1♠ - raptor, 4+♠'s and unknown long minor

1NT - raptor, 4+♥'s and an unknown minor

2♣ = transfer to diamonds

2♦ = preempt in hearts, or ♠ ♣ two suiter

2♥ = preempt in ♠ or ♣ ♦ two suiter

2♠ = preempt in clubs or ♦ ♥ two suiter

2NT = monster two suiter, strong hand with good game chances despite their bid

3♣ = preempt in diamonds or bigger ♥ ♦ two suiter

 

Use paradox raises over 2♦ and higher.. for instance..

 

(1♣) - 2♥ - (dbl) - 4♦

 

2♥ showed either preempt in spades or both minors. 4♦ here shows ♠ fit and ♦ fit. If 2♥ bidder has spades, he happily corrects back to 4♠.. if he had both minors, you found your fit too...

 

Ben

[scoob]

i had fun, but not without having the value of a prepared defense slapped in my face for both rounds :)

[hrothgar]

i had fun, but not without having the value of a prepared defense slapped in my face for both rounds :)

Couple comments here:

 

1. In our 12 board match, Free and I hardly trotted out any of our "strange" stuff. We had no assumed fit preempts. We had no relay auctions. We had only had one transfer opening and that immediately transitioned into natural bidding. Most of the big swings boiled down to judgement.

 

Case in point. The biggest swing in the entire match was 15 IMPs. The auction started

 

(1♦) - P - (1♠) - P

(2♣) - ???

 

1♦ = 9-14 HCP and 4+♥,

1♠ = natural and forcing

 

Your partner bid 2♦ holding

 

♠ K7

♥ 9542

♦ Q7654

♣ Q8

 

2♦X went for 1100

 

In a similar fashion, the following auction occured during the second round:

 

(1♦) - P - (2♦) - P

(2♥) - P - (P) - X

(P) - 2NT - (P) - 3♣

 

1♦ = 9-14 HCP and 4+ ♥, 2♦ = unbalanced with 5+♦, non-forcing

 

3♣ doubled should have gone for a number but we let you off the hook.

 

I have few rules about bidding, but heres one of the basics: Its really dangerous to intervene in auctions where both opponents have shown values and denied a fit...

 

2. I readily admit that you weren't allowed much leeway over your nebulous club/strong Diamond openings bids. However, those are the breaks. In this day and age you aren't going to be allowed to have a constructive auction over your strong openings. You absolutely require good defenses that can be applied to any one of a variety of different overcall structures.

[Free]

Imo, if you want to defend against strong openings, you should intervene with NF bids, and don't always give away a cuebid. After a strong ♣ opening, Dbl and 1♦ give away bidding space, so it's absolutely USELESS to use these bids for destructive purposes.

 

My defense:

 

pass = I'm too afraid to bid

Dbl = strong, balanced hands

1♦ = strong, unbalanced hands

1♥ = 0-3♥, 4+♠

1♠ = 0-3♠ (to intervene without giving a cuebid)

1NT = 5+m or 44♥♠

2m = DONT

2M = 5+M

2NT = 55+m

 

This defense is simple and efficient: Dbl and 1♦ is strong, 1M is 0-3M, and 1NT and higher is the Meckwell defense vs strong NT.

 

You're free to intervene with whatever bid you want. You can describe ANY hand with 3 bids: 1♥, 1♠ and 1NT. The other bids can also be used whenever you feel like it's safe enough, or if you want to take a risk.

Every bid at 2-level is NF, which also doesn't give away too much rounds of bidding to opps. Even the 1-level bids are NF. As long as opps don't Dbl, why would we try to find a fit? And perhaps we already found it... :)

 

I'll try this defense against nebulous 1m openings (as an experiment) since it worked out quite nice the other night. The only thing I'm not sure about is if this 1♠ overcall is allowed, since it doens't show any 4+ card suit.

[scoob]

good points

 

and as i said, it was a learning experience. and the majority of the problems we had were dealing with the forcing pass in the second round, which we were completely unprepared for.

 

overall the experience was humbling to say the least. but i think we're both looking forward to doing it again if it's happening.

[inquiry]

good points

 

and as i said, it was a learning experience. and the majority of the problems we had were dealing with the forcing pass in the second round, which we were completely unprepared for.

 

overall the experience was humbling to say the least. but i think we're both looking forward to doing it again if it's happening.

I don't think the match demonstrated the stregnth of "free's" methods versus your opening bids as much as it demonstrated the weakness of your preparation for non-standard bids. Let's deal with just a few....

 

On board 4 after Free's 1NT overcall showing a five card minor, or 4-4 or longer in the majors, you landed in 4♠ on a 4-4 fit. Free had 4♠, as you should deduce from the rest of the bidding. Playing double dummy, 4♠ is easy to make and would be huge win for your side if you managed it.

 

On board 3, your partner opens the big 1♦ bid. Richard overcalls 1NT on 2-3-5-3 with Kxxxx in diamonds.. the bidding continues.. 1♦-(1NT)-Pass-(2♦). where 2♦ was pass/correct and bid on a doubleton queen. If your partner makes a takeout double here, you holding JT9x of diamonds and the KJ of clubs will pass. The will lose 3♣, 3♦, 2♥ for down three doubled.. as it is your partner bid 2♠ and went down two.

 

Your partner's 2♦ bid on the auction richard pointed out was suicide.

 

ben

[david_c]

A method that FORCES you to overcall with 4333 and 3hcp with 1♥ (or 1♠) could lead to utter disaster, especially vul. I suspect since 6NT was cold then 1♥X or 1♠X or 2 any minor doubled would not be a big susccess....  down seven is a possibility and down six likely. Not vul 1400 to 1700.. and vulnerable? Don't get me started... :-)

 

Ben

Indeed, on that board they were about to go for at least 1400, but after the auction (1♣) - 1♥ - (X) - 1♠ - (X) - P, the East player (me) inexplicably decided to let them off the hook by bidding 3NT. I knew prefectly well that my parnter's double was for penalty, but I got twitchy. That board is going to be giving me nightmares for years to come ...

 

Anyway, I enjoyed the game very much, and it was a pleasure meeting you folks. I hope you manage to arrange something like that again, though I'd probably better stick to kibitzing in future :)

 

David (col3435)

[Antoine Fourrière]

I would prefer something like

 

DBL 44 or 43 in the majors

1♦ 3/4 hearts and a five-card minor

1♥ 3/4 spades and a five-card minor

1♠ 5 spades

1N 5 hearts without 3 spades

2♣ 5 hearts and 3/4 spades

 

It robs them of their cue-bid when you do not have a five-card major, but also gives your side more flexibility for a raise. They still have to consider playing in your 3/4 card major. And if you end up declaring, it will often be from advancer's undisclosed hand.

[hrothgar]

good points

 

and as i said, it was a learning experience. and the majority of the problems we had were dealing with the forcing pass in the second round, which we were completely unprepared for.

One last comment

 

As I noted earlier in the thread, I think that its a mistake to expect the opponents to provide good defenses to their own methods. I very much prefer structures based on advanced pre-disclosure...