Low HCP slam

[lmilne]

Saw a pretty good 29 point grand in bidding practice today. How would you bid this one?

 

Here's our auction - as you can see we have a tough time dealing with maximum passed hands without support because we play 2♣ drury.

 

Interested in any auction, but prefer ones beginning with Pass by North and a natural 1♠ by South.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saqj982hat9d8cak8&n=skhk732da92cqt743&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=ppp1sp1n(5-11%2C%20semi%20forcing)p2c(16+%20any%20or%20natural)p2d(8+%20any)p3h(3%21H%206+%21S%2016-19)p3nppp]266|200[/hv]

[mike777]

1c=1s

1nt(11-13)=3s(single suit slam try)(stronger than 2d)

4d?=4nt

5h=6c (Kc grand try)

7c=7s or 7nt?

[655321]

Interested in any auction, but prefer ones beginning with Pass by North

 

Not what you are looking for I realise (sorry), but in my view passing the North hand is beyond conservative/style thing and is just bad.

 

Anyway I am sure some of the regular forum double dummy bidders will have no trouble reaching the best spot seeing both hands.

[cloa513]

Saw a pretty good 29 point grand in bidding practice today. How would you bid this one?

 

Here's our auction - as you can see we have a tough time dealing with maximum passed hands without support because we play 2♣ drury.

 

Interested in any auction, but prefer ones beginning with Pass by North and a natural 1♠ by South.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saqj982hat9d8cak8&n=skhk732da92cqt743&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=ppp1sp1n(5-11%2C%20semi%20forcing)p2c(16+%20any%20or%20natural)p2d(8+%20any)p3h(3%21H%206+%21S%2016-19)p3nppp]266|200[/hv]

Hitting chronic underbidding here- South's hand is worth much more than 18 HCP with long spades and North's hand is instant massive improved above 11HCP with South's spade opening.

[lmilne]

Not what you are looking for I realise (sorry), but in my view passing the North hand is beyond conservative/style thing and is just bad.

 

Anyway I am sure some of the regular forum double dummy bidders will have no trouble reaching the best spot seeing both hands.

 

Sure. I'm happy to hear comments like this, I just wasn't interested in people opening the North hand because it makes auctions to slam easier. My partner and I are practicing for a world championship and thought passing was conservative but reasonable, so any criticism that opens our eyes a little bit is most welcome.

 

And I understand the point about double dummy bidders, and fully expect to see several relay auctions to grand.

[mike777]

Saw a pretty good 29 point grand in bidding practice today. How would you bid this one?

 

Here's our auction - as you can see we have a tough time dealing with maximum passed hands without support because we play 2♣ drury.

 

Interested in any auction, but prefer ones beginning with Pass by North and a natural 1♠ by South.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saqj982hat9d8cak8&n=skhk732da92cqt743&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=ppp1sp1n(5-11%2C%20semi%20forcing)p2c(16+%20any%20or%20natural)p2d(8+%20any)p3h(3%21H%206+%21S%2016-19)p3nppp]266|200[/hv]

 

 

 

dont know gazille(sp)

 

 

should north bid 4d over 3h here as a cuebid for spades?

 

 

I will go out on a limb and guess this would show close to the auction as mine above or can south have a pretty ratty 16 and poor spades here?

 

 

in any event it seems north as a passed hand needs to be able to show a bad 8 from a good 12 or 13 as a passed hand.

 

 

Otherwise this just seems to be a typical system problem when both pards have a max and cant show it.

[sfi]

Saw a pretty good 29 point grand in bidding practice today. How would you bid this one?

 

Here's our auction - as you can see we have a tough time dealing with maximum passed hands without support because we play 2♣ drury.

 

Interested in any auction, but prefer ones beginning with Pass by North and a natural 1♠ by South.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saqj982hat9d8cak8&n=skhk732da92cqt743&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=ppp1sp1n(5-11%2C%20semi%20forcing)p2c(16+%20any%20or%20natural)p2d(8+%20any)p3h(3%21H%206+%21S%2016-19)p3nppp]266|200[/hv]

 

3NT looks like a dreadful underbid, with 10 points that are known to be working and a side 5 card suit.

 

I would expect North to drive to slam over 3H, probably continuing with 3S-4C-4D. The 4D bid is what shows real slam interest, so South cooperates with 4H. Even if North signs off now, South can simply ask for key cards and bid 6S.

 

To get to seven you need to have a way to show clubs after the 1S opening, but that's a separate issue. A moderate to large one IMO, but beside the point.

[Furlan]

1♣ - 1♠

2♣ - 2NT¹

3♠² - 4♦³

4♥³ - 4NT⁴

5♣⁵ - 5♦⁶

5♠⁷ - 7♣/7NT

 

¹ GF with club support

² spade shortness

³ cue

⁴ RKCB

⁵ 1

⁶ ♣Q?

⁷ Yes and ♠K

[mike777]

1♣ - 1♠

2♣ - 2NT¹

3♠² - 4♦³

4♥³ - 4NT⁴

5♣⁵ - 5♦⁶

5♠⁷ - 7♣/7NT

 

¹ GF with club support

² spade shortness

³ cue

⁴ RKCB

⁵ 1

⁶ ♣Q?

⁷ Yes and ♠K

seems wierd auction....north rebids lousy 5 card club suit...and then shows short spades with stiff K in pards suit?

[nigel_k]

I'm sure you opened with worse than that North hand playing with me. Anyway I think it's borderline and pass is ok. It's difficult to comment about the rest of the auction without knowing the methods but I think responder should prefer to play in spades rather than NT, i.e. bid 3♠ over 3♥ to set trumps. Not so much to facilitate slam investigation but mainly just to be in the best game. After that you can probably cue bid to 6♠ but I wouldn't get any higher. Every card is working and it's still only around 70%, plus they might stop in game at the other table.

[mike777]

I'm sure you opened with worse than that North hand playing with me. Anyway I think it's borderline and pass is ok. It's difficult to comment about the rest of the auction without knowing the methods but I think responder should prefer to play in spades rather than NT, i.e. bid 3♠ over 3♥ to set trumps. Not so much to facilitate slam investigation but mainly just to be in the best game. After that you can probably cue bid to 6♠ but I wouldn't get any higher. Every card is working and it's still only around 70%, plus they might stop in game at the other table.

 

 

 

is 3s over 3h game force?

 

 

if so then it seems 4d is better, basically my auction

 

 

north is a passed hand how can he have a better hand except "one"

[gnasher]

Every card is working and it's still only around 70%.

I think 7♠ is approaching 85%. Without doing anything fancy, we need only trumps coming in (84% + 1/5 x 15%) and clubs not 5-0 (96%), which gives 83.5%.

 

There are two small extra chances: a trump coup when RHO has ♠10xxxx and three clubs, and a squeeze when he has ♣J9xxx and four hearts. Both of these mean that LHO has rather a lot of diamonds, though, so they're probably ruled out by the bidding.

[gnasher]

Perhaps the answer is to play pass-1♠;2♦ as a maximum passed-hand without a fit?

[andy_h]

North should set spades. You can bet that the ♠K is a huge filler, and when the spades are not solid you would most likely prefer to be in 4♠ too in case opener has nothing in diamonds.

 

I also 100% agree about opening North's hand. You don't really know the value of the ♠K as it could be very good or very bad, but all in all it's a 12 count. What makes it even worse is the vulnerability! You certainly don't want to give the 3rd hand favourable opponent a free chance of chucking in an onion.

[rhm]

Not what you are looking for I realise (sorry), but in my view passing the North hand is beyond conservative/style thing and is just bad.

I would open the North hand myself (just), but this view is sheer nonsense.

Whatever your convictions are, I am sure that even at world championship level a sizable minority would not open this hand.

 

Pass - 1♠

1NT¹ - 3♣

4♣² -- 4♦³

5♦⁴ -- 5♥⁵

5♠⁶ -- 7♠ / 7NT

 

¹ semi-forcing

² Minorwood (The North hand got huge, Minorwood is a most useful convention in my opinion)

³ one or four key-cards

⁴ grand slam try, all key-cards present

⁵ hoping partner can show the spade king

⁶ Bingo

 

Rainer Herrmann

[mike777]

Perhaps the answer is to play pass-1♠;2♦ as a maximum passed-hand without a fit?

 

 

why?

 

it seems just bid natural as passed hand

 

 

why have 2d mean nothing but max and no fit? you show nothing

 

if 2d shows d ok but you dont say that

 

 

anyway i give my auction

[Cyberyeti]

Pass by N is so bad playing standard methods, it's impossible to build a sensible auction after it.

 

We'd bid: (Acol auction so the club shows 4)

 

1♣-1♠

2♣-2♦(art relay)

2♥-2♠

2N-4♦(kickback ♣)

4♥(1/4)-4♠(Q♣?)

4N(yes + K♠)- now you're bidding a grand, just a question of which, you know partner has at least K, xxxx, Ax, Qxxxx plus a card in clubs, diamonds or spades and if both blacks run you have 13.

 

If dealer happened to be south.

 

1♠-2♣

2N(GF not always balanced)-3♣(shows a 5th one, says nothing else)

3♠-3N

4♦(kickback ♣, if ♦ held would have bid 3♦ over 3♣) and as above

 

alternatively in the second auction could bid 4♠ rather than 3N, in which case Blackwood then showing K♣ will get to the grand. Note that a real passed hand (Kx, xxx, Axx, QJ10xx) is sufficient for an excellent grand.

[yin970902]

IMO,as you play 2♣ drury.maybe as this:

Pass - 1♠

1NT - 3♣

4♣-- 4♠

5♦ -- 5♥

5♠-- 7♠ / 7NT

When south bids 3♣,north has a very good hands.So a slam try is happyness.

Cuebid 5♦,then 5♠, to make a grand slam try.

South enjoys the invitation.

[Zelandakh]

Sorry, I cannot offer you a relay auction to the grand. Like Mr Yeti I find it hard to construct a reasonable auction in my methods where North passes, if for no other reason than Sotuh has to rule out North holding the ♠K. So if North passes I would only reach 6♣ and even that is somewhat pushy:-

 

P - 1♣ = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any

1NT = hearts and clubs or hearts only, GF

... - 2♣ = relay

2♥ = 4 hearts, 5+ clubs

... - 2♠ = relay

2NT = 5 clubs

... - 3♣ = relay

3♦ = 1435

... - 3♥ = relay

4♣ = 3 controls

... - 4NT = Q ask

5♦ = ♣Q, no ♦Q

... - 6♣ (partner cannot hold ♦A, a red king, ♣Q and ♠K)

 

 

I think it is much better to open the North hand, even when you have to open it a Precision-style 2♣. That probably makes the auction about as difficult as it can be but it is still possible...

 

2♣ = 10-14, 6+ clubs or 5 clubs and 4M

... - 2♥ = 4+ spades

2♠ = 0-2 spades

... - 4♣ = 3+ clubs, SI

4♦ = decline slam try

... - 4♥ = RKCB

4♠ = 1 key card

.. - 4NT = ♣Q?

5♥ = yes, and ♥K but no ♦K

... - 5♠ = ♠K?

5NT = yes

... - 7NT

 

As for a natural auction, South has a strong 2 hand. If you have a way of showing this hand type in the system then it should be fairly easy to reach at least 6 of something. If you do not then you are accepting that some hands are not going to reach their full potential. Presumably there are other parts of the system that make up for this; that is generally the case since strong 2s are comparatively rare.

 

One system point here, I thought it was normal for the strong 6♠3♥ hand to go via a 2♥ bid over Responder's 2♦. That would allow Responder to show their clubs along the way which would probably be enough opposite this South hand. Perhaps you might consider a direct 3♥ as a GF 5-5 hand allowing you to go slower with this one. The auction-start

P - 1♠

1NT - 2♣

2♦ - 2♥

3♣

seems pretty good to me and I have little doubt that most teams in the running for a world chamiponship would reach a grand slam from this point.

[JLOGIC]

I am just going to pretend south is dealer since there is no way I think passing is reasonable.

 

1S 1N

3C 4D

4H 4N

5C 5H

5S 6S

7S

 

is a possible auction using natural methods with light openers (so no 2C 2/1...just going with the south being the dealer thing :P) and kickback (4D RKC, 4H 1/4, 4N confiming all keycards, 5C no kings, 5H showing HK denying DK, 5S showing the SQ, 6S presumably showing the SK, 7S). North showed the HK, SK, DA, CQ and presumably 5 clubs for keycarding over a 3C jump shift in standard methods. Admittedly north bid quite carefully, but I think that is a reasonable thing to do given the suspect nature of 3C, he is aware that 7S might be superior to 7C so I think bidding carefully would be indicated. His partner might also just have a 7N bid sometimes (add the CJ), and winning 2 free imps is worth not being lazy.

 

That said if north bid less carefully/lazily he would get to 7C which is not all that bad.

[JLOGIC]

Whatever your convictions are, I am sure that even at world championship level a sizable minority would not open this hand.

 

There is just no way this is true. Try to find instances of people passing 12 counts in world championships (in recent times). You will be hard pressed to find more than even 1 I'm sure. Let alone such a good 12 count. I can not stop you if you don't want to open this hand but saying a sizable minority would fail to open this hand in a world championship is just false.

 

Also if you want to play minorwood or kickback you should use your space more efficiently. Why would you make 5D your bid to confirm all the keycards and try for 7? Presumably 4H would be your queen ask, that leaves 4S and 4N and 5C, none of which can be to play when partner has 4 keycards. If you did this you would not have to do things like bid 5H over 5D without the HK in hopes that partner will bid 5S. Sometimes lying about the HK will mislead partner into bidding 7 himself, when he has something like x QJxxx Ax Qxxxx. Admittedly this is not that likely of a layout, but there is no need to risk things like this happening when you have so much space.

[billw55]

I am usually satisfied to reach the small slam on low-point hands like this. Since you stopped in game, this would already be a big improvement. Also, consider that 7♠ or 7NT is not as good if north holds either red queen instead of the club queen, which is a difficult thing for south to work out in the auction. Perhaps 7♣ is the most realistically biddable grand, but I still won't cry over missing it.

[rhm]

There is just no way this is true. Try to find instances of people passing 12 counts in world championships (in recent times). You will be hard pressed to find more than even 1 I'm sure. Let alone such a good 12 count. I can not stop you if you don't want to open this hand but saying a sizable minority would fail to open this hand in a world championship is just false.

I wonder whether we are looking at the same North hand. What I see is a minor suit oriented hand with a singleton king in a major. Many Bridge player (including me) believe that is a downgrade not an upgrade.

Please feel free to enlighten me what is so "good" about this 12 count. If I type the hand into the Rubens Kaplan evaluator (known to be reasonable for suit contracts) it comes back with 11.2

(Kaplan claimed his elevator should show 13 for an opening bid and 12.5 would be an optional one if you had the majors. Admittedly this was somewhere in the nineties)

 

Also if you want to play minorwood or kickback you should use your space more efficiently. Why would you make 5D your bid to confirm all the keycards and try for 7? Presumably 4H would be your queen ask, that leaves 4S and 4N and 5C, none of which can be to play when partner has 4 keycards. If you did this you would not have to do things like bid 5H over 5D without the HK in hopes that partner will bid 5S. Sometimes lying about the HK will mislead partner into bidding 7 himself, when he has something like x QJxxx Ax Qxxxx. Admittedly this is not that likely of a layout, but there is no need to risk things like this happening when you have so much space.

As you said 4♥ would be queen ask. 4♠ suggests spade as a possible trump suit and 4NT is defined as a suggestion to play after minorwood while 5♣ would be forcing opposite 4 key-cards and a sign-off otherwise.

So from responder perspective 5♣ is safe, but only 5♦ is an unambiguous grand slam try confirming all key cards.

Admittedly in this case it is hardly possible that opener has only one key card and when responder is assured of such a positive reply, different agreements thereafter might make more sense.

I prefer to keep it simple and avoid expensive misunderstandings in potential slam auctions. I have been hurt too often.

My agreements are uniform over all minorwood replies (4NT in particular is always a suggestion to play, this allows to invite a minor suit slam without giving up game in notrumps). It has served me well.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[billw55]

I wonder whether we are looking at the same North hand. What I see is a minor suit oriented hand with a singleton king in a major. Many Bridge player (including me) believe that is a downgrade not an upgrade.

Please feel free to enlighten me what is so "good" about this 12 count. If I type the hand into the Rubens Kaplan evaluator (known to be reasonable for suit contracts) it comes back with 11.2

(Kaplan claimed his elevator should show 13 for an opening bid and 12.5 would be an optional one if you had the majors. Admittedly this was somewhere in the nineties)

I got the feeling that Justin was talking about what actually happens in world class events, rather than the theoretical merits of the hand.

[rhm]

I got the feeling that Justin was talking about what actually happens in world class events, rather than the theoretical merits of the hand.

This exact hand (♠K,♥K743,♦A92,♣QT743) was not played in a world class event. Justin claimed the South hand to be "such a good 12 count". I do not see why.

Justin's partner in the Bermuda Bowl Grue, not known for having strong opening bid requirements, playing Precision with Cheek against Levin Weinstein, passed third in hand at favorable vulnerability the following hand:

 

♠Q4,♥K63,♦QT82,♣AT94.

 

This hand is different but by standard evaluation methods quite comparable in strength. I would call it a good 11 count.

This was in the first quarter of the last Vanderbilt final. The match was even at that point.

 

Rainer Herrmann