Off 2 Quick Club Tricks

[TWO4BRIDGE]

We benefited from the opps 6H-1 slam at IMPs.

We took our Club tricks.

Surprisingly, almost half the field was in 6H.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=s65hakq84dak9cqt5&n=sakt832hj7632dc98]133|200|How would you bid it ??[/hv]

 

Edit ( Addition ):

Yes, South was Dealer .( I put that in the original diagram but had to start a new diagram when I mis-entered a suit and must have forgotten to add ).

Edited June 26, 2012 by TWO4BRIDGE

[mike777]

fwiw I get to 6h also.

 

 

it does take a club lead to beat it. :)

[lmilne]

I'm not 100% on the first response, but I play 1♥-3♠ as any void (and 1♥-3NT/4♣/4♦ as splinters) so I think I'd use that. After 3NT asking for the void and 4♦ showing that void, opener would probably sign off. Even if opener kicks (5♦?) responder should know about the club problem to stop.

 

I hate responding to problems with a gadget, so other possible auctions are:

 

1♥-1♠;

2NT-3♥;

4♦-4♥.

 

or

 

1♥-4♦;

4♥-4♠ (?);

5♦-5♥.

[MrAce]

We benefited from the opps 6H-1 slam at IMPs.

We took our Club tricks.

Surprisingly, almost half the field was in 6H.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=s65hakq84dak9cqt5&n=sakt832hj7632dc98]133|200|How would you bid it ??[/hv]

 

Should we assume that south is dealer ?

[perko90]

I think I'm more disciplined with my splinters than most. This doesn't qualify on 2 accounts: < 10 HCPs and each side suit is not headed by at least the Q. I know that's not everyone's taste, but for eating up so much space, I like it to be a picture bid.

Imilne's 1st suggested auction is along the lines of where I'd go, but I'm not sure I'd sign off at 4♥.

 

I would be tempted to take another shot:

 

1♥-1♠;

2NT-3♥;

4♦-4♠??;

5♦-5♥

 

Although in some past partnerships, continuing to cue bid beyond game implied no quick 2 losers in any skipped suit, and that's not the case here.

[SteveMoe]

North might try a small swindle:

Assume South deals -

1♥ - 4♣

4♦ - 4♠

etc.

Against higher level competition I think the ♣ lead will be unlikely...

Back to reality, my 2/1 partnerships would likely bid

1♥ - 3♠ (hidden splinter)

3N (asking) - 4♦

4♥

[mike777]

i dont get these auctions you miss slam if pard has club control. no where does pard deny clubs

 

fwiw i bid 6h down on c lead.

 

granted double dummy I can cue bid my way to safety but.....rats I wont.

[mikl_plkcc]

We benefited from the opps 6H-1 slam at IMPs.

We took our Club tricks.

Surprisingly, almost half the field was in 6H.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=s65hakq84dak9cqt5&n=sakt832hj7632dc98]133|200|How would you bid it ??[/hv]

 

South deals:

 

Old natural system:

1♥ - 3♥ (forcing raise)

4♦ - 4♠

5♦ - 5♥

What's wrong with it? Opener denied both club controls!

 

With Jacoby 2NT but without splinters:

1♥ - 2NT

3♥ - 3♠

4♦ - 4♠

5♦ - 5♥

same as above

 

My advice: don't use splinters! It wastes space for cuebidding!

 

It sounds strange to me that half of the field get to the unmakeable slam!

[Zelandakh]

You did not specify 2/1, so...

 

1♣ = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any

... - 1♥ = 4+ spades, not balanced or 3-suited with <4 hearts, GF

1♠ = relay, usually 18+

... - 1NT = 4+ hearts

2♣ = relay

... - 2♠ = 5+ spades, 5+ hearts

3♥ = hearts are trumps, SI

... - 4♣ = serious, spade control, no club control

4♥ = sign off

 

Is this a continuation of the side suit vs Jacoby vs splinter debate?

[manudude03]

1H-4D

5D-5H

Pass

 

is the simple auction. 5D denies a black suit control.

[Cyberyeti]

A good time for 1♥-4♣ fake void :)

[gszes]

1h

 

2n j2n i have a huge heart fit and game forcing hand sounds like j2n to me 1s whcih says little

just seems to be marking time for no good reason. I dislike using splinter with a side suit

becasue the side suit frequently makes splinter biddng inaccurate.

 

 

3n 16+ no short suit

 

4d cue bid

 

4h no club control life is too simple

[TWO4BRIDGE]

You did not specify 2/1, so...

 

Is this a continuation of the side suit vs Jacoby vs splinter debate?

I always appreciate your relay auctions.

I'm going to read your book when it comes out.

 

Did someone mention Jacoby ?

 

If Responder chooses an inspired Jac2NT ( whether simple or modified ), they will get an auction similar to gszes ( previous post ), and the pair will find out at or below 4H that they are missing a ♣-Ctrl.

 

[ I agree with those who say Responder should not bid 1S ] .

[Cyberyeti]

1h

 

2n j2n i have a huge heart fit and game forcing hand sounds like j2n to me 1s whcih says little

just seems to be marking time for no good reason. I dislike using splinter with a side suit

becasue the side suit frequently makes splinter biddng inaccurate.

 

 

3n 16+ no short suit

 

4d cue bid

 

4h no club control life is too simple

This is fine at IMPs, at MPs is much more complicated as 4♥+1 may be a really bad board as everybody else is making 4+3 or 6+1, and you've pinpointed the club lead.

[Zelandakh]

This is fine at IMPs, at MPs is much more complicated as 4♥+1 may be a really bad board as everybody else is making 4+3 or 6+1, and you've pinpointed the club lead.

My auction pinpoints the club lead even more precisely I think. That's the problem with science sometimes.

[EricK]

These slams come home more often than not if you avoid pinpointing the lead. So well worth bidding at any form of scoring.

 

Last night we had this unopposed auction 1♣ 1♠ 3♠ 6♠. LHO didn't find the lead of a ♥ from Kxx to his partner's Ace, preferring his ♦ sequence, so slam rolled home.

 

On the given hands, a sequence like 1♥ 1♠ 2NT 5♥ 6♥ would give you good odds to make the slam, I reckon.

[kenrexford]

Well, now this deal is funny. What I am about to propose is REAL, and I would in fact bid this way, as this very topic has come up in discussions.

 

The obvious start is a 1♥ opening.

 

As Responder, I do not like splinters with voids or with running six-baggers, and I do not like Jacoby 2NT with this type of hand. I also hate muddying the waters with a 1♠ response. So, the only remaining option, which is almost knee-jerk obvious for me, is a 2♣ GF response. 1♥-P-2♣. (As an aside, this leave me with options to pull a faker if I want to later, and it has the slight dissuading effect on a club lead should I end up zooming. It also blocks a club lead-director bid by fourth seat.)

 

Opener now rebids 2♦, because I like 2♦ after a 2♣ call as "balanced or diamonds." 2NT would ideally show a really good diamond-heart two-suiter. I could live with the treatment of 2NT as the 18-19 balanced hand (only bidding 2♦ if balanced when weak), in which case we start this auction at 3♥ agreeing trumps. But, I will continue as if 2♦ was the call.

 

Responder now sets trumps. 1♥-P-2♣-P-, 2♦-P-2♥

 

Opener bypasses 2♠ because he lacks a spade control (Ace, King, stiff, or void, and hence 2+ spades), bypasses 2NT because he has good trumps (two of the top three honors or better), and cuebids 3♣ because he has one of the top three clubs (ostensibly "my suit"). 1♥-2♣, 2♦-2♥, 3♣. (This is even more fun,as we now have really made a club lead sound bad.)

 

Responder can hold back on the club situation for a minute and continue cuebidding, bidding 3♦ to show a diamond control. As Opener denied a spade control, this shows a spade control, as well.

 

Opener now cuebids 3♥ to show all three top hearts.

 

Responder, who already inferentially showed a spade control, can now cuebid 3♠ to show first-round control in spades.

 

Opener, who has 18 HCP, bids 3NT as Serious.

 

The auction so far:

 

1♥-P-2♣-P-

2♦-P-2♥-P-

3♣-P-3♦-P-

3♥-P-3♠-P-

3NT-P-?

 

At this point, North does not know whether South has a club control or not. North could be practical and bid 4♦ as another cue to assure that the diamond control is first-round, thereby isolating the potential club problem, but this would not be entirely clear to South, as North would need both top club honors to cue 4♣. However, this would strangely be an auction calling for Lackwood, even though 4♦ is not LTTC but rather a true cue (as the partner of the Serious 3NT bidder cannot bid LTTC in my methods), strange because I rarely see the use for Lackwood. Well, here it is.

 

North also has another practical option, which is a 5♣ call. When 5♣ cannot be Exclusion, I play this as RKCB for clubs, even though hearts ar agreed. This treatment works wonders here, because (1) Responder already knows about all three top hearts (which often occurs in these types of cuebidding sequences), (2) clubs is the issue (which often is the case, as well), and (3) it still leaves the opponents blind about clubs, at least somewhat. It has some downside, though, in that a grand might be hard to discover, seeing that the key card might be the King and that the difference between 2-5-3-3, 3-5-2-3 and 3-5-3-2 is enormous. At least the spade doubleton could be found later, by an asking bid, but the club question would be unresolved, which is bad. So, that option only works for small slam seeking. (I hav not thought this through to see what might happen in given auctions, but I think the grand is not discoverable this way.)

 

North could also try 5♦ as Exclusion, planning to bid a funny "find the lead" 6♥ if h wants to be exotic, while preserving a fair shot and finding a grand when it is there.

 

So many tactical choices...

[rmnka447]

I'd expect to stop below slam any number of ways --

 

1 ♥ - 2 NT(Jacoby)

3 NT - 4 ♦

4 ♥ - 4 ♠

4 NT(waiting) - 5 ♦

5 ♥

 

or

 

1 ♥ - 4 ♦(splinter)

4 ♥ - 4 ♠

4 NT(waiting) - 5 ♦

5 ♥

 

or

 

1 ♥ - 1 ♠

2 ♦(extras) - 3 ♥(GF, slammish)

3 NT(waiting) - 4 ♦

4 ♥ - 4 ♠

4 NT(waiting) - 5 ♦

5 ♥

 

Yes, cyberyeti, all of these, of course, pinpoint the lack of a ♣ control, but that's just the breaks.

 

In a really good field, I'd expect this might get a below average MP result.

 

But in an average MP field, I'd expect it wouldn't be any worse than slightly below average at worst. It'll score better than the bashers who are in 6 ♥s off 1, match the score of anyone else in 4 ♥ or 5 ♥ who get a ♣ lead, and lose to those making 6.

[Statto]

i dont get these auctions you miss slam if pard has club control. no where does pard deny clubs

In Perko's auction the 4♦ cue suggests no ♣ control and the 5♦ cue confirms no 1st or 2nd round ♣ control. Signing off in 5♥ is now easy.

[JLOGIC]

These slams come home more often than not if you avoid pinpointing the lead. So well worth bidding at any form of scoring.

 

 

Exactly. If I got to slam obviously I would not pinpoint a C lead (else I would not play slam). It is fine to be scientific and stop, or to blast or even go out of your way to psyche a cuebid and then to play slam. As long as you are not scientific and pinpoint the C lead THEN bid slam, anything is fine, but I'd say playing slam after cuebidding/exclusioning in clubs>>>>>playing slam on a blast>playing game

[aguahombre]

1H-6H is so old with these hands that two quick losers in a suit are expected. But, it still works when opening leader guesses wrong. The exclusion ploy is less common, but it can't hurt to double just in case. So, the direct blast might be a better plan.

[JLOGIC]

1H-6H is just a stupid bid. You have no heart honors and 8 HCP to go with your 2 club losers. It is not the equivalent of bidding 1H p 7H with AKQxxx AKxxx -- xx or something would be reasonable.

 

1H p 2N p

3N showing 18-19 bal, now you might think about some trickery since you know partner has significant extras. It might depend on the opponents. 5C is certainly a bid especially against weak opps. Given my reputation for psyching exclusion I'm thinking 5D might be a reasonable bid for me against a very good opp. Or you could blast. Or you could simply bid a subtle 4C if you think exclusion is fishy. If a club bid gets doubled, you can always reconsider. Or you could play it straight and start with 4D if you decide you won't get away with a club bid. Any of these things are fine, this hand becomes a tactical one.

[KurtGodel]

We play extended 1430 Baby Blackwood, so the bidding would go:

1♥ 2NT

3♦ 3♠

4♦ 4♠

5♥

At this point we would realise that we were missing ♣AK. We don't play that you need all the key cards to go up a level, given that we start so low. So the auction translates to:

I have 3 key cards.

I'm missing one but do you have the trump queen?

I do, and one of my controls was in diamonds.

Cool, I have spade control.

Oh, so clubs are out.

[mikl_plkcc]

If you don't like splinter, don't like Jacoby 2NT, why don't you use the old forcing raise and use a wide-ranging constructive raise? It then shows nothing about the side suits if you just want to go to game so the opponents will be in a guess when they make the opening lead!

 

1♥ - 2♥ = 6-11

1♥ - 3♥ = GF

[mikl_plkcc]

1H-6H is just a stupid bid. You have no heart honors and 8 HCP to go with your 2 club losers. It is not the equivalent of bidding 1H p 7H with AKQxxx AKxxx -- xx or something would be reasonable.

 

If they doubled for the lead, we would be in a huge disaster!